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The Torah & the Talmud; Christ & the Church

Reader comment on item: Smoking Out Islamists via Extreme Vetting
in response to reader comment: Interview questions

Submitted by Robert (United States), Feb 25, 2017 at 22:30

Dear Mr. Carl Goldberg,

I want to direct your attention to the history of religion in the West, among it's Jews and Christians to show you the inadequacy of your proposal.

At the time of the Protestant Reformation, it was Martin Luther who rebelled against the Roman Catholic Church on the grounds that its practices did not correspond to the Bible (Old & New Testament). Whatever was the outcome of that controversy, no one had denied the sanctity of the Holy Scriptures. Obviously, the difference was the Practice, not the Content. Thereafter came Erasmus, and the Catholic Church of Rome came out with the Brilliant Solution: Realm of Faith vs. Realm of Reason. I take that to mean that whatever your Belief was, it was never a denial of the Content of the Book, nor was it a denial of the Secular World were your practice of daily life required conformity to the laws of the local Prince in which one resided.

In Judaism, we have seen, in the 19th century in particular, the rise of a whole rainbow of religious distinctions, all of which were softening of Orthodoxies meant to conform to the Modern World. Furthermore, Jews have lived as a minority for 20 centuries among non-Jews; in that context, one could not expected there to emerge a practice that did not conform to the norms of the dominant "other" culture. In that context, incidentally, no Jew was ever required to deny the veracity of any sentence in the Torah/Tanakh.

I hope this argument has persuaded you to abandon your recommendation to question Muslim on their beliefs as to the truthfulness of passages in the Koran. The correct question should be how exactly would the Muslim believer in the Koran BEHAVE towards the Other in the USA, Muslim or not.

What the Muslim applicant for Immigration, or a Visa, to the USA, should be required to show is prospective conformity to our Constitutions and Laws and Traditions. And we now that these, Today, are not consistent with a substantial portion of the 1.6 Billion Muslims of the World.

And in particular, we have an interest to prevent Muslims who will have Third-Generation Grandchildren who may desire to Amend the Constitution to make certain Sharia violations Capital Offenses. For example, imagine the possibility of introducing a Sacrileges Amendment so than anyone who made a Video of the Life of Mohammad that was deemed especially offensive subject to Execution in the Electric Chair (or maybe beheading). That Amendment would not violate Disestablishment provision of our Constitution, because ANY violation of ANY religion would become a federal crime.

So the issue should be to exclude Muslims whose descendants will be inclined to Amend our Constitution in favor of Islam. That, in fact, is the invidious and corrupting was of ISIS. I have little doubt that there are no "smart" Muslims in ISIS (Dash) who see themselves already victorious because Millions of Muslims have descended on the West as Immigrants and Refugees - precisely because the maintain their Islam with them as they cross the borders of the "blind" infidels - recall that the Infidel wishes to Live, but the Jihad practicing Muslim wishes to Die for Islam ! From that it follows that the number of Refugees granted permanent residency, or citizenship, should be small; all religion is like an infectious contagious inherited disease - you get it from your parents as a child, or a preacher as an adult. So we should look for Muslims who have abandoned Islam first. Or those who have violated it and have been subjected to execution, or maiming (in Saudi Arabia you get your hand cut off for steeling - under Sharia Law). And even that is a problem. An Adulterous in Saudi Arabia is subject to being stoned to death. Will she continue with her Wahhabi Religious sect once granted asylum?

So it is insufficient to have Severe Vetting; we must also have a Quota as to the Maximum number allotted Residence Status and the route to Citizenship in 5 years.

Perhaps we should also consider non-permanent refuge for Muslims - with the goal of re-settlement back home once peace and civility is restored in the Muslim homeland. Nowhere are the Palestinian absorbed as citizens; why should other Muslims today not be made to wait to return to where they came from?

The reason for that I think is the world's Antisemitism against the Jews of Israel; only the Jews of Israel are expected to absorb back the Palestinian Refugees and Displaced Persons? Why should that not be the case for the Muslims now displaced by ISIS?


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (120) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
American Religious Liberty: Freedom From Religion vs. Freedom for Religion [340 words]RobertMar 30, 2017 06:06238021
Poor, Misunderstood, Khalid Masood - British Born London Terrorist [268 words]RobertMar 23, 2017 14:46237856
1Muslims Aren't Terrorists, But Terrorists Are Muslims [368 words]RobertMar 20, 2017 13:52237785
1A tweet by Ben Shapiro to Reza Aslan: "You're Gross"! [206 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
dhimmi no moreMar 12, 2017 18:04237560
3Note that Hirsi Ali doesn't think even 'moderate Islam' is the answer [73 words]AnonMar 14, 2017 10:48237560
2Ayaan Hirsi Ali v Erdogan on Islam [51 words]dhimmi no moreMar 16, 2017 11:19237560
1I think Reza Aslan should work for democracy in Islamic world [149 words]PrashantMar 16, 2017 23:35237560
Vetting Christians and Jews [48 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
EbenMar 11, 2017 13:36237515
4Middle East Migrants [14 words]mjazzguitarMar 8, 2017 20:34237245
7Smoke out the Islamists [53 words]Larry R.Mar 1, 2017 06:18237066
What about American born Islamists? [211 words]NadiaMar 9, 2017 16:50237066
11Follow up to: Smoke out the Islamists [595 words]Larry R.Mar 10, 2017 11:25237066
5Reply to: What about American born Islamists? [428 words]Larry R.Mar 11, 2017 07:20237066
what to do with the Muslim quandary? [122 words]allan enkinMar 16, 2017 19:32237066
1Dr Pipes, what say you about the apparently ironically named Department of Homeland Security? [77 words]AnonFeb 26, 2017 15:00236999
Nat Security Advisor McMaster seems to think Muslims shouldn't be vetted at all! [109 words]Michael SFeb 26, 2017 00:15236990
Vetting v Extreme vetting [284 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 24, 2017 11:44236951
Smoking Out Islamists by Self-Selection [119 words]Martin J. MallietFeb 24, 2017 06:35236947
1Interview questions [241 words]Carl GoldbergFeb 22, 2017 19:37236896
3The Torah & the Talmud; Christ & the Church [773 words]RobertFeb 25, 2017 22:30236896
2Verses to use in vetting [637 words]Michael SFeb 28, 2017 04:43236896
The only problem with limiting Islamist immigration, is the current American state of confusion [213 words]Michael SFeb 28, 2017 05:05236896
1Historical and Moral Issue - 100 Years of Racism after Slavery [213 words]RobertMar 3, 2017 06:48236896
1Simple statement of fact [77 words]PrashantMar 3, 2017 23:05236896
God, save us from Left Wing "morality". [153 words]Michael SMar 6, 2017 03:46236896
1"Parable of the Good Samaritan" vs. "Racism" [411 words]RobertMar 9, 2017 02:35236896
We disagree completely, about racism, religion and some other matters. [473 words]Michael SMar 11, 2017 13:35236896
Congress, Religion, & Racism [584 words]RobertMar 14, 2017 12:24236896
Race, "Racism" and Morality [588 words]Michael SMar 16, 2017 06:44236896
When the Bible Judges Racism [317 words]M ToveyMar 17, 2017 15:17236896
matter of definition. [90 words]Mohammed Waza Khiddif id'UllahMar 18, 2017 01:33236896
"Race " meaning - Oxford English Dictionary [347 words]RobertMar 20, 2017 02:15236896
Races vs. Pseudo-races [248 words]Michael SMar 20, 2017 22:40236896
"Racism" is a greatly exaggerated phenomenon [451 words]Michael SMar 21, 2017 00:28236896
The First Amentment is more constrained by federal policy, than by Islam [140 words]Michael SMar 21, 2017 00:46236896
Exactly, refugees can go home once the war is over [115 words]NadiaApr 24, 2017 11:57236896
Division if in Israel, It was and is always cultural. Not related to "racism". By in large. [376 words]Ely PostalJun 21, 2020 13:00236896
5Does the 14 Amendment to the USA Constitution Bar President Donald Trump from Stopping Muslim Immigrants ? No. [331 words]RobertFeb 17, 2017 11:47236785
why not a full ban? [202 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Mitch FuggerFeb 16, 2017 04:17236754
There Are No Peaceful Muslims [78 words]benFeb 20, 2017 12:26236754
how a 100% ban would in effect surrender border control [65 words]mythFeb 22, 2017 12:19236754
You may be right, Ben [28 words]Michael SFeb 26, 2017 00:09236754
5Is It Unconstututional for thr President to Discriminate Against Foreign Muslim Immigrating to the USA ? [171 words]RobertFeb 13, 2017 23:19236706
4simple rules [105 words]Mohammed Waza Khiddif id'UllahFeb 16, 2017 04:51236706
The animals are loose [109 words]Michael SFeb 26, 2017 00:04236706
Some questions are way too bias against a religious person"s right to believe [120 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
DanielFeb 13, 2017 01:26236682
CIS and extreme vetting. [106 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Jay WillinghamFeb 12, 2017 13:17236664
Objectivizing the process: Islamicity Index? [226 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
YochananFeb 12, 2017 08:08236656
1You Are dealing with MUslims [121 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Gloria StewartFeb 11, 2017 23:31236646
Why admit Muslims? [165 words]Gloria StewartFeb 17, 2017 21:21236646
2ban [18 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
helenFeb 10, 2017 00:59236570
3The Establishment Clause in the Context of the Fifth & Fourteenth Amenments (USA) [473 words]RobertFeb 12, 2017 15:53236570
2Vetting without explicit reference to Islam [365 words]Chaim YankelFeb 9, 2017 15:25236557
4Establishment of Islam as the Religion of the USA by Islamists [637 words]RobertFeb 9, 2017 14:26236552
Who are Islamists? [197 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Andrew AndersonFeb 2, 2017 11:39236240
Extreme vetting [65 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
FatherJonFeb 1, 2017 16:59236206
A simple, three-step, approach [307 words]Michael SFeb 7, 2017 17:21236206
1... one-sided [91 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
MarsFeb 1, 2017 12:39236201
1Porque? [31 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
carlos alberto feldmanFeb 1, 2017 12:32236199
Distinguir malas intenciones de Buenos - [247 words]M ToveyFeb 6, 2017 17:12236199
People who deny Radical Islamic Terrorism, including Gen. McMaster, undermine America [479 words]M ShoemakerFeb 26, 2017 04:24236199
Not All of America's Enemies Are Muslim [311 words]M ToveyFeb 27, 2017 11:45236199
Even President Sisi welcomes use of the term "Radical Islamic Terrorism" [223 words]Michael SMar 3, 2017 14:59236199
Radical Islamic Terrorism: Not the Only Threat to America [243 words]M ToveyMar 6, 2017 16:48236199
Turkey- [333 words]Michael SMar 8, 2017 01:57236199
How much of world's GNP is wasted on Islam? [408 words]PrashantMar 8, 2017 22:40236199
Religion is 24/7, or it is not a religion [137 words]Michael SMar 11, 2017 12:42236199
3Antidisestablishmentarianism vs. Establishing Creeping Islamism in the United States [289 words]RobertFeb 1, 2017 12:07236198
All we are saying,is give Trump a chance [226 words]StanFeb 1, 2017 08:09236182
9The real problem is neither "muslims" nor "islamists" [69 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
marlanFeb 1, 2017 06:22236177
People are people and not ideology [186 words]mythFeb 5, 2017 15:10236177
A totalitarian system has to be removed, sooner or later [63 words]marlanFeb 7, 2017 10:09236177
Two wrong views [78 words]PezDispenserFeb 14, 2017 04:08236177
There is nothing such as "moderate" islam [34 words]marlanFeb 16, 2017 07:34236177
Reply [91 words]PezDispenserFeb 20, 2017 05:18236177
we need muslims in the West to defeat islamism [139 words]mythFeb 22, 2017 12:47236177
1I do not believe in islam-free muslims [123 words]marlanFeb 24, 2017 06:43236177
1In-order to defeat Islamism support moderate Muslims and for sure never support the Muslim Brotherhood [194 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 27, 2017 08:32236177
vet indivuduals and don't cooperate with islamic organizations [231 words]mythMar 3, 2017 03:27236177
I am sure the "islamists" will be smoked out of the United Islamic States [101 words]marlanMar 4, 2017 10:13236177
1There are violent doctrines in Islam [117 words]dhimmi no moreMar 6, 2017 08:18236177
The source of Radical Islamic Terrorism? [100 words]dhimmi no moreMar 6, 2017 08:38236177
1Islam is not reformable [83 words]marlanMar 20, 2017 05:52236177
Pointless Questioner [34 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Nathan MetricFeb 1, 2017 06:15236175
1A perfect answer to my letter on the Trump ban published in the Jerusalem Post yesterday: [207 words]Mladen AndrijasevicFeb 1, 2017 02:37236164
Ineffective ban [95 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
AnonJan 31, 2017 18:06236143
Re: Ineffective ban [240 words]AnonFeb 2, 2017 21:30236143
1Repeated questions [135 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
MarkJan 31, 2017 14:53236133
Muslims do not consider it wrong to lie. [38 words]Michael SFeb 1, 2017 03:41236133
non serious Trump [100 words]ASFeb 4, 2017 05:08236133
2With whom does the burden of proof lie? [74 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Stu FaginJan 30, 2017 22:08236088
5My Letter to jpost.com on Trump's Travel Ban [129 words]DaveJan 30, 2017 21:07236084
religious tests vs ideological test [766 words]Erich WiegerJan 30, 2017 20:38236083
6American Constitutional Rights - for the Rest of (Wo)mankind [620 words]RobertJan 31, 2017 13:36236083
1"Cheat Codes" [260 words]Mark HummelJan 31, 2017 21:06236083
correction [172 words]Erich Robert WiegerFeb 1, 2017 13:37236083
1Protecing the Rule of American Law - America's Protection is the World's Protection [411 words]M ToveyFeb 1, 2017 19:03236083
3The only way to vet refugees [145 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
GamalielJan 30, 2017 18:20236075
Questions? Born to lie! [99 words]Nick BointonFeb 1, 2017 08:32236075
4The "10%-15% of Muslims who are Islamists" [368 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
PeterJan 30, 2017 12:40236074
1irrational omission of Saudi Arabia ,Morocco, Tunesia, Algeria [43 words]mythJan 31, 2017 16:53236074
active criminals same age group as active islamists [137 words]mythFeb 27, 2017 06:12236074
7Contemplating Amendment XXVIII to the USA Constitution [677 words]RobertJan 30, 2017 07:55236064
Congress cannot alter the Bill of Rights; but this shouldn't be a major problem for our President [625 words]Michael SJan 31, 2017 08:03236064
1islamic violence against the West in pre 1791 times in Saint Tropez [112 words]mythJan 31, 2017 16:46236064
Feeling left out? [121 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Moderate PragmatistJan 30, 2017 00:39236042
Scary [202 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Nazim AbdullayevJan 29, 2017 17:05236022
4President Donald Trump supports LGTBQ Rights [349 words]RobertJan 31, 2017 12:36236022
1Resentment and fear, out of nowhere [285 words]JeffJan 31, 2017 15:35236022
not going to happen [366 words]Mohammed Waza Khiddif id'UllahFeb 1, 2017 04:19236022
64% populists [122 words]JeffFeb 7, 2017 15:50236022
3"Do you support Israel, or Zionism?" "Yes." "Let her in !" [102 words]RobertJan 29, 2017 15:10236019
5This Discrimination "Wuestionaire" Discriminates Against Very Bad Muslims - an Inadvertance ? [316 words]RobertJan 29, 2017 14:31236017
4CAIR Florida Disnonesty: "American Muslim" Means Canadian Citizen [111 words]RobertJan 29, 2017 14:02236008
Just nationality? [12 words]GabrielJan 29, 2017 08:30235975
2Comment [141 words]Barbara SkibaJan 28, 2017 19:57235940
3can the US send the applicant back? [122 words]mythJan 28, 2017 16:45235931
1Treaties between States/Countries Governing Deportation [142 words]RobertJan 29, 2017 14:51235931
2It's the new converts who are dangerous [138 words]Michael SJan 30, 2017 06:03235931
Questions for the Muslim Applicant for a Visa to the US!! [142 words]Paul WarrenJan 30, 2017 22:56235931

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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