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Quote Vs Quote..A reply to Sue

Reader comment on item: Is Allah God?
in response to reader comment: The point of the discussion?

Submitted by Don (India), Oct 1, 2005 at 07:46

Dear Sue
This is in response to your previous comments.
You said.

Please stop using quotes from the Bible, cause a lot of people don't believe in it, and no matter how much u quote, it's not convincing, cause others believe it's written by man's hand anyway and could've been changed. When u say Jesus said this and that it doesn't make sense to others, cause they don't believe he said it in the first place. The bible was written after Jesus (pbuh) has died, so there's no guarantee that it's true. when u die, u cannot control what is said about u, can u??

When i quote from the Holy Bible i quote from the Old Testament and the New Testament.
When i quote from the Old Testament (messages like how Cain killed Abel, how Joseph (Yosef) was sold into slavery by his brothers or the story of Prophet Moses and the Israelites and how God saved them from bondage, etc..), when i quote such, all the Jewish people believe me, all Christinas believe and i think most Muslims too, because we all agree that the storiesof the old prophets are almost similar (though there are some twisted stories in Islam). But in Judaism and Christianity the belief is completely the same.
When i quote the New Testament, all Muslims just like the Christians, believe in the message we have like the virgin birth of Jesus, that he was a spirit from God, that he healed the lepers and the sick, walked on water , he is Messiah,he will come to judge etc.....Christianity and Islam agree on this (the differences are we believe he is the Son of God , was crucified and others).
So you see if i quote such quotes or other, all Christians as well as Muslims believe it. The only ones who don't believe will be the Jews, though they believe the Messiah is yet to come.
So when i quote from the Old and New Testaments i will have believeing Jews, Christians as well as Muslims.
What about you? who believes you when you quote from the Quran? Neither Jews nor Christians believe Islam is from God. This website and its forums, are read by Jews, Christians and Muslims. So you see when i quote Bible verses, there are much more people to believe me, as Christianity is wholly or partialy recognised by Judaism and Islam....

"and no matter how much u quote, it's not convincing"....
I'm quoting the words of God and not mine. If somebody does not believe them, he is rejecting the word of God not my word.

"cause others believe it's written by man's hand anyway and could've been changed."
Yes the Holy Bible is written by men, not by jinns, unknown spirits or some angel dictating to a sitting prophet. But do you know who these men are? have you ever inquired? these "men" are Prophets, Scribes, Disciples,....men who are inspired by the spirit of God.
The Jewish people have painstakingly preserved their Holy Scriptures (Torah,Tanach) from generation to generation. The Dead Sea scrolls, recently found near Qumran are enough proof of this. Between 1949 and 1956, in what became a race between the Bedouin and the archaeologists, ten additional caves were found in the hills around Qumran, caves that yielded several more scrolls, as well as thousands of fragments of scrolls: the remnants of approximately 800 manuscripts dating from approximately 200 B.C.E. to 68 C.E
The Qumran text includes five biblical quotations connected by interpretation. The first two quotations refer to the raising up of a prophet like Moses. The third quotation refers to a royal Messiah, the fourth to a priestly Messiah. The quotation from Joshua is connected to the coming of a time of great disaster, brought on by those dedicated to evil. The manuscript is usually dated to the middle of the first century B.C.E. ...etc...etc....
You can visit Israel's Museum in Tel Aviv, to see the Dead Scrolls by yourself....the scrolls found are around 200 B.C.E and they match word by word with the words of Prophet Isaiah in the Book of Isaiah....there are other many orginal messages too.
The original New Testament was written in Hebrew and Greek and then translated into many different languages, but still the orginal Hebrew/Greek copies match with the Holy Bible we have now.
So you see the messages have not been changed, there are 1000's of archeological scrolls to support the originality of the Holy Bible. Even the atheists, die hard Christian bashers could not refute the originality of the Bible. Bible originality has been attacked for centuries, but time and time again, Christianity has proved its critics wrong. Christianity has overcome all the charges and has survived for centuries and will survive too till the end of days. It is Islam, that has never been put yet under the microscope. Whether it is going to survive or not will be seen in the future.
You said "men" wrote the Bible. Well the following are some of what those "men" wrote.
1. Those "men" wrote that Abel was the son of Adam and his brother Cain killed him. (Gen:4:8). They also wrote that Joseph (Yosef) was the son of Jacob (Yakub) and was sold to slavery by his brothers (Gen:37:22-28).. do you believe them? yes/no?......But wait a minute, is this not what angel Gabriel exactly dictated Mohammed? how come those "men" knew all this 1000 of years before Mohammed? they must have some magic!
2. Those people whom you call "men" also wrote that Prophet Moses divided the Red Sea by the power of God ....do you believe them? wait a minute...is this not also waht angel Gabriel revealed to Mohammed? how come those "men" knew and wrote that 1000 years before Mohammed? ....
3. Those "men" also wrote about the virgin birth of The Messiah, Jesus Christ by the angel Gabriel...well do you believe those "men"? but isn't this also what Gabriel told to Muhammed? are the "men" trustable?
You see you believe in all what i wrote above who was writen by ordinary people whom you call "men" and they would never tamper or corrupt the Holy Bible as they know whoever done is accursed for ever? but corrupt for what purpose? waht is the aim?
During Jesus' time Jerusalem was under the Romans. There was a government. There was civilization. Writting and recording was normal. There were religious and non religious, Jewish and non Jewish scholars at that time with the culture of writting and preserving scriptures.
But who wrote the Quran? when was it written? are there any original documents or ancient documents? are there any archeological evidence that support that.
The truth: Although Muslims proclaim they have a Koran that dates to the time of Muhammad, the Reality is different.

Two ancient copies of Koran that are in existence are the Samarqand MSS is in Tashkent, and the MSS housed in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul. What many Muslim's do not know, is that because these two manuscripts were written in a script style called "Kufic", practicing Muslim scholars generally date these manuscripts no earlier than 200 years after Muhammad died. Had these two manuscripts been compiled any earlier, they would have been written in either the Ma'il or Mashq script style. John Gilchrist, in his book, "Jam' Al-Qur'an" came to this same conclusion. (John Gilchrist, Jam' Al-Qur'an, Jesus to the Muslims, 1989)

Now we do have one ancient copy of the Koran written in the Ma'il style of script, that is housed in the British Museum in London (Lings & Safadi 1976:17,20; Gilchrist 1989:16,144). But scholar Martin Lings, who was not only a practicing Muslim, but also a former curator for the manuscripts of the British Museum, dates this manuscript at 790 AD, making it the earliest. On the other hand Yasir Qadhi notes one Islamic Masters/PhD scholar who believes the Samarqand MSS is the ‘most likely candidate for the original'.

It is unknown, even by Muslims that authorities will not release photographs of the ancient Topkapi manuscript in Istanbul and so there are no known studies on it. This is why the Muslim apologist, M. Saifullah had to state "Concerning the Topkapi manuscript we are not aware of studies done it." (Who's Afraid Of Textual Criticism?, M. S. M. Saifullah, 'Abd ar-Rahman Squires & Muhammad Ghoniem) What is in this manuscript that Muslims are afraid to let the world see? After all in Qur'an 2:111 it says "Produce your proof if you are truthful."

Even the earliest fragmentary manuscripts of the Koran are all dated no earlier than 100 years after Muhammad died.

Add to this the fact that there is no archeological evidence dated at the time when Muhammad was alive, by way of artifact, manuscript or inscription has ever been found were Muhammad is actually referred to as "a prophet".

If you don't believe me, listen to faithful Muslim, Ahmad Von Denffer, in his book, Ulum al Quran, in a chapter called, Old Manuscripts Of The Qur'an, "Most of the early original Qur'an manuscripts, complete or in sizeable fragments, that are still available to us now, are not earlier than the second century after the Hijra. [or 800 AD] The earliest copy, which was exhibited in the British Museum during the 1976 World of Islam Festival, dated from the late second century.' However, there are also a number of odd fragments of Qur'anic papyri available, which date from the first century." (Grohmann, A.: Die Entstehung des Koran und die altesten Koran- Handschriften', in: Bustan, 1961, pp. 33-8) (as given by the website www.bible.ca).

There are no ancient copies of the Koran dating before 750 AD in museums. We challenge you to prove us wrong! Send us the name, locate and date of the Koran written earlier! Email Brother Andrew (as given by the website www.bible.ca)

"The bible was written after Jesus (pbuh) has died, so there's no guarantee that it's true. when u die, u cannot control what is said about u, can u??"
Those who wrote the Bible are disciples of Jesus, who were eye witnesses. The spirit also assists them in spreading and writting the message. Don't you think God will pour his spirit and assist them in writing it? But it is still ironic that, since Jesus was message was wriiten after his death, you don't want to belive it. However Mohammed's words were also written after his death (by almost 800 years), but you don't have any problem believing that.

" So if u are really wanting to discuss differences about religions, u should first try to discuss why u believe in a book, and not believe in another. (though i'm still convinced one should find this out himself without critizing the others). "

I believe in the Holy Bible because it is a true word of the living God, what ever prophecies written i can see it coming true, it is a book of God's wisdom,instruction for life,love and compassion among human beings, it nourishes me spiritually and makes me a good human and it is a book that teaches me patience and hope. It teaches me the way to the eternal life.

" Now please give me one or more miracle about the bible, that makes one believe that what is written in it is true. cause i have read the whole bible and failed to find anything like that"

The Bible is a religious book. It is not a Biology or Botany book. As it is a religious book it teaches the morality in life, the way and commandments of God.It is a spiritual book. It dosenot have to prove itself by quoting scientific discoveries. If you are searching for scientific discoveries ,i think it is better if you read books written by Albert Einstein.
When i read the Holy Bible i search for spiritual messages that i don't get from science books, words that give me wisdon and instruction in life, i search the meaning of life and the message to go to the life after life.
P.S.. However, i have come across the message in the Book of Job that the Earth is described as round.. This was in contradiction to the Quran which said that the earth was flat.. anyway i don't like to prove my Bible through science.
But if you are looking for miracles or predictions that have come true, then the Bible is full of them..you can read it..it is all there.
As for the scientific discoveries and other i will be keeping in touch with you soon.
Best regards,


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