69 million page views

Salvation history

Reader comment on item: U.S.-Pakistan Relations in Decline
in response to reader comment: What Muhammad did to Khaibar

Submitted by dhimmi no more (United States), May 8, 2011 at 11:26

Ted wrote

>Can an expert in Islamic history answer how the deeds of Muhammad in the battle of Khaibar can support his credentials as a religious leader. Most religions that I know about, do not approve of deceit, breaking of promise, politial negotiations, and wars as particularly religious things. To me it appears that Muhammad not only involved in all these things in this war but also he acquired a Jewish girl (17 years old) as a wife for himself in this war. Apparently, she was given the choice to either become a slave or convert to Islam and become a wife. She chose the latter.

I hate to disappoint you but I happen to believe that John Wansbrough was very correct that we cannot reconstruct the life of Muhammad by reading the Qur'an only and as you know the Hadith is really anachronistic and it only reflects the aspiration of the emerging Muslim community in the 3rd century of Islam and Ignaz Goldziher was able to detach it from the so called historical Muhammad

As for Muhammad's biography or sirat rasul allah or al-sira al-nabawiyya or 3ilm al-maghazi there is nothing historical about them and they are no more than,, as was proven by Wansbrough, Salvation history or to be blunt pious fiction and as was proven by Henri Lammens that the sira as well as the hadith are no more than qissas (stories) that were all made up to explain the Quranic logias and pericopes that did not make any sense to the Ulama in the 3rd century and they still do not make any sense now

Oh and the so called genre of al-tarikh (read this as islamic history) was found to be late, tendentious and no more than qissas as well as topoi and schemata that mean nothing and lead us no where

What is most amazing is that even his name Muhammad is problematic as we are told in the sira that his name was really Qutham and his kunya was Abul Qasim but the Qur'an on only 4 occasions talks about a Muhammad and one time about an Ahmad and the sira tell us that he was munahimana which is a Syriac word and it means he who did rise (from the dead which is supposed to be Jesus) and we are told in al-Masjed al-Aqsa inscriptions that Muhammad(an) abd Allah which is Arabized Syriac for the blessed the servant of Allah which is supposed to be Jesus in the old Christian Syrian/Arabian theology and what is even more intersting is that the islamic historical tradition tells us that his name really means the blessed but the presence of what Arabic language grammarians call masdar memi in his name as in the first meem in Muhammad which is a rare grammaticacl construction in the Arabic language makes it clear that the word Muhammad is not even an Arabic word but Syriac and Hebrew where the meaning of the word would be the blessed as the word the blessed in Arabic means Mahmoud and not Muhammad!

I hate to disappoint you but it is the truth

>A lot is written about this war and to justify Muhammad's action but even at its best it was a war between a business community and a religious army. They each followed a different sets of standards and methods with one side doing what businessman usually do and the other compromising every good principle of religion while hiding under the religious umbrella. The example that Muhammad set is gong on even today. In Islam, every war is a religious war, politics, religion and economy are deeply intertwined, ethical standards are easily compromisable for sectarian gains, and the true goal of each war is material gain. Batya dagan very correctly refers to the battle of Khaibar and quotes from Mushsharraf's speech to illustrate how Islamic politics works.

Good point however if your question is did Muhammad exist then the answer is I happen to believe that there really was no historical muhammad and more likely than not there was no Khybar either and if he existed then we do not have the evidence that he did exist unless we find some cave in Saudi Arabia with a trove of extant documents

But we are still left with a legacy of an Arabian warlord and caravan raider and therefore criminal behavior by Islamist to justiry his so called legacy

I hope i helped

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Submit a comment on this item

<< Previous Comment      Next Comment >>

Reader comments (82) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
2No space for Pakistan on this website [122 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
B.N.GururajMay 18, 2011 00:27185322
Stepping Stones to a Greater Threat [277 words]M. ToveyMay 23, 2011 19:17185322
The Stick to Dance the Lion! [23 words]Mohammad Mansoor Ali AnsariOct 14, 2011 03:13185322
US PAKISTAN REALTIONS IN DECLINE [209 words]IsaacMay 15, 2011 04:29185210
Counterfeit Christians [229 words]kerusso alethesMay 12, 2011 15:21185148
1What the TRUTH of the WORD of the LORD Declares [554 words]M. ToveyMay 20, 2011 18:21185148
Truth versus Fiction [58 words]kerusso alethesMay 23, 2011 13:58185148
A Book of Human Logic Cannot Counter What Holy Spirit has Declared Truth by the Word of Jesus Christ. [24 words]M. ToveyMay 23, 2011 19:21185148
Hebrew Holy Bible Contains No Fiction [103 words]M. ToveyMay 24, 2011 19:23185148
Authenticity [319 words]kerusso alethesMay 26, 2011 15:37185148
Paul the Corrupter [174 words]kerusso alethesMay 27, 2011 13:16185148
Authenticity of Paul Provided By the Holy Spirit [871 words]M. ToveyMay 31, 2011 14:31185148
The parakletos and Paul? [456 words]kerusso alethesJun 2, 2011 12:40185148
Getting Scripture Right by the Words of Jesus Christ [292 words]M. ToveyJun 2, 2011 18:27185148
Jesus also taught: Salvation is Conditional. [181 words]kerusso alethesJun 6, 2011 08:38185148
More on the Upper Room Discourse - Jesus' Love is Unconditional - Salvation the Guarantee [976 words]M. ToveyJun 9, 2011 13:30185148
Without Paul — [185 words]kerusso alethesJun 10, 2011 14:55185148
One Gospel Only - To Be Preached To All the World - To Pakistan and Everywhere [830 words]M. ToveyJun 13, 2011 15:54185148
Confusion; the real enemy. [405 words]kerusso alethesJun 17, 2011 12:27185148
1Tooled Against Confusion - Ephesians 6:10-17 [636 words]M. ToveyJul 5, 2011 13:11185148
Hardy Hatred. [802 words]kerusso alethesJul 19, 2011 21:19185148
1Paul's Authentication Scripturally Sound - By His Demonstrated Love for Jesus Christ [779 words]M. ToveyJul 21, 2011 19:15185148
By thy words … [465 words]kerusso alethesJul 25, 2011 14:12185148
By the WORD of the LORD [230 words]M. ToveyJul 25, 2011 18:25185148
Pakistan and Terrorism [165 words]Frank LukeMay 10, 2011 21:28185088
1Declare Pakistan a 'Terrorist State" [189 words]kamekishMay 9, 2011 02:31185042
Containment of Pakistan? [60 words]Kepha HorMay 8, 2011 20:20185030
U.S.-Pakistan Relations in Decline - comment [17 words]richardMay 8, 2011 18:48185027
2Taliban will retake Afghanistan [156 words]Leonard MarkowitzMay 7, 2011 17:56185000
Perhaps, but... [69 words]Peter HerzMay 8, 2011 20:07185000
Pakistan and Afganistan and the USA [8 words]richardMay 10, 2011 01:46185000
Good [31 words]DiplomadMay 7, 2011 17:55184999
2The Pakistan Conundrum [143 words]Frank LukeMay 5, 2011 20:15184929
Time to recover the cost of terrorism from Pak Military [123 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiMay 8, 2011 04:05184929
1Today Pakistan - From Whence the Next Enigma - The American Dilemma [821 words]M. ToveyMay 10, 2011 12:11184929
9Wishful Thinking [223 words]Shadi KatyalMay 5, 2011 10:04184912
5I agree, leaving any remnant of that helicopter was a grave error in judgement [70 words]saraMay 5, 2011 18:54184912
Good point [243 words]VijayMay 9, 2011 08:23184912
us pakistan relationson the decline [134 words]Isaac FlaksMay 5, 2011 09:48184911
1living with illusions [4 words]aniaMay 5, 2011 06:41184903
1Time for an American Awakening [133 words]Benjamin MedvedMay 5, 2011 00:42184894
The world community failed to detect OBL, Pakistan alone is not to be blamed. [176 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiMay 8, 2011 04:40184894
U.S.-Pakistan Relations in Decline [11 words]SolMay 4, 2011 23:38184890
2Pakistan not allies [97 words]Lorenz GudeMay 4, 2011 23:10184889
For Bad over Good [41 words]Jay1May 4, 2011 22:03184887
1Priorities!!!!!!! [57 words]Susan SomervilleMay 4, 2011 21:23184884
2Pakistan-American Enemy [61 words]John WrightMay 4, 2011 21:07184882
there is difference [13 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiMay 7, 2011 13:54184882
Now recover damages from Pakistan [307 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiMay 7, 2011 14:09184882
1U.S. Pakistan Relations Decline...How could they not know? response to John Wright. [98 words]Anne- USAMay 9, 2011 13:31184882
1rue [5 words]richardMay 10, 2011 01:48184882
2What do they say in URDU. [123 words]batya daganMay 4, 2011 20:19184877
Now recover damages from Pakistan, stop Charity is not enogh. [431 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiMay 7, 2011 14:29184877
1+I will never forget what they did to Mumbai. [122 words]batya daganMay 8, 2011 18:27184877
Reality check [82 words]Rebecca MouldsMay 4, 2011 20:10184876
All Pakistanis are enemy [30 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiMay 7, 2011 14:05184876
1Contain Islam. [103 words]Charlie GriffithMay 4, 2011 20:09184875
Is it Religion or disease? [59 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiMay 8, 2011 05:10184875
1We Indians should attack Pak ASAP and get all the terrorists [105 words]adam eveMay 4, 2011 19:43184874
2The Case For Pakistan [216 words]John in Michigan, USAMay 4, 2011 18:46184872
Russian Paranoia !!! [71 words]Carlos de SouzaMay 4, 2011 23:10184872
1Not paranoia, just skepticism [281 words]John in Michigan, USAMay 5, 2011 23:31184872
10The one thing that REALLY Scares the Pakistanis [106 words]Richard BenkinMay 4, 2011 18:20184870
3Kepp India out of this Pakistani quagmire. [71 words]KamathMay 5, 2011 08:56184870
Once upon a time [27 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiMay 7, 2011 14:00184870
Pipe's comments [6 words]SydMay 4, 2011 18:17184869
1Diplomatic Quid Pro Quo [23 words]DavidMay 4, 2011 18:03184867
Majority of Pashtuns Already Disaffected - Why Does the US Still Try? How Many Megatons Does 4,5 Bil Buy? [62 words]M. ToveyMay 4, 2011 12:17184861
4Pakistan As Danger Zone [81 words]Virginia GentlemanMay 4, 2011 08:32184851
2SINK or SWIM [101 words]Carolina AngelMay 5, 2011 08:49184851
9Pakistan is our enemy and it should be declared as a terrorist state [116 words]dhimmi no moreMay 4, 2011 06:48184848
2But is that practical, dhimmi no more? [195 words]Aymenn Jawad Al-TamimiMay 7, 2011 12:46184848
Blame Game is national Game of Pakistan [124 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiMay 7, 2011 14:34184848
What Muhammad did to Khaibar [230 words]TedMay 7, 2011 16:42184848
3Salvation history [742 words]dhimmi no moreMay 8, 2011 11:26184848
2Pakistan is a terrorist state [525 words]dhimmi no moreMay 9, 2011 06:21184848
1Q78:31-34 [338 words]dhimmi no moreJun 30, 2011 19:47184848
slight correction [20 words]dhimmi no moreJul 1, 2011 06:06184848
8Anything positive in Pakistan [169 words]TedMay 4, 2011 01:33184839
Now recover damages from Pakistan, stop Charity is not enogh. [17 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh Bharat PanthiMay 7, 2011 14:45184839
6Time for Truth [612 words]Fred BaehrMay 4, 2011 00:55184836
2Always [28 words]Michael SharpMay 3, 2011 23:41184833

Comment on this item

Mark my comment as a response to Salvation history by dhimmi no more

Email me if someone replies to my comment

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

See recent outstanding comments.

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2024 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)