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Mansoor: Isn't Islamic logic great? Just as Hudaibiya was a great victory Pakistan also won all its wars with India

Reader comment on item: Still Asleep After Mumbai
in response to reader comment: Attempts build confidence!!

Submitted by Plato (India), Jan 23, 2009 at 11:04

>>I hope you have heard of Mahmood Ghaznavi...and the seventeen attempts to conquer Somnath temple<<

Which Indian has not heard of Ghaznavi, he was one of the first Muslims to devastate India. You are proud of that fact. But remember he could have been responsible for torturing and killing one of your ancestors. If that gives you some kind of Islamic pride you are welcome to it.

>>..Pakistanis never get tired of attempting to teach the lesson of the lifetime to India...We learn from our failures and we cannot be intimidated!!! Be sure!!<<

You have been trying to teach us lessons since Kashmir. The latest lesson from Pakistan was Mumbai. But why have you been denying it and claiming it was a plot of Indian intelligence? You should be proud that ten of your jihadi Muslims proved your Koran correct in ‘breaking the skulls' of nearly 200 kaffirs. Even Allah could not have guessed that a Muslim is equal in strength to 20 kaffirs. Allah had hazarded a guess of only one Muslim = ten kaffirs.

>>Do you think that you will boast yourself on 1965 (Lal Bahadur Shastri your then Prime Minister died with shame on loosing the war???? on the table of Tashkent peace talks)<<

Here are some summarized facts from neutral sources:

There have been few neutral assessments of the damages of the war; some of the neutral assessments are mentioned below:-

The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy--on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government.[47]

  • TIME magazine analyzing the conflict,[48] reported that India held 690 Mi2 of Pakistan territory while Pakistan held 250 Mi2 of Indian territory in Kashmir and Rajasthan, but had lost half its armour.
  • An excerpt from Stanley Wolpert's India,[49] summarizing the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965, is as follows:

In three weeks the second IndoPak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin.

  • Dennis Kux's "India and the United States estranged democracies" also provides a summary of the war.[50]

Although both sides lost heavily in men and materiel, and neither gained a decisive military advantage, India had the better of the war. New Delhi achieved its basic goal of thwarting Pakistan's attempt to seize Kashmir by force. Pakistan gained nothing from a conflict which it had instigated.

  • Newsweek magazine, however, praised the Pakistani military's ablility to hold of the much larger Indian Army.[51]

"By just the end of the week, in fact, it was clear that the Pakistanis were more than holding their own."


Take your pick of what these reports have to say about the war. If you are under the impression that you won, when then of course you did!

>>Do you still boast your chest on dismantling East Pakistan now Bangladesh in 1971. (Taking benefit of Pakistan's internal crisis and attacking from the back on the very distant part of Pakistan).<<

What I have underlined shows you the real reason Pakistan split. You think that East Pakistan was your rearend! LOL. There were more Pakistanis in what you call ‘the very distant part of Pakistan' than the Pakistan you inhabit (55% to 45% in 1947). How can it be considered a distant Pakistan? This means you in the West thought they were a lesser people and you proved that by concentrating the greater part of your forces in the West which had less number of Pakistanis but was considered more worthwhile to defend. And despite Allah's reassurance that one Muslim is worth two Hindus (or is it ten?) your army in the East just caved in. India got about 90,000 Muslim prisoners. We did not keep them to clean our toilets as slaves as we were entitled to by your sharia. Instead we fed them and released them without even a ransom. We are kaffirs and weak in the head, your Allah has told that several times and at least in this instance He was right.

This is what the Hamidur Rahman Report says, ordered by the government of Pakistan after the war, which analyses the Pakistani defeat.

…..As no such procedure was adopted, it led to a general feeling among the troops, including their officers that they were entitled to take whatever they wanted from wherever they liked. This appears to us to be the genesis of the looting alleged to have been indulged in by the Army in East Pakistan.

12. In the early stages this method of procurement seems to have been encouraged by senior commanders, including Lt. Gen Niazi, whose remarks on the very first day of his taking over command from Lt. Gen Tikka Khan have already been quoted by us in an earlier chapter, viz: "what have I been hearing about shortage of rations? Are not there any cows and goats in this country? This is enemy territory. Get what you want. This is what we used to do in Burma." …….

'Due to corruption... lust for wine and women and greed for land and houses, a large number of senior army officers, particularly those occupying the highest positions, had not only lost the will to fight but also the professional competence necessary for taking the vital and critical decisions demanded of them for the successful prosecution of the war.'


A great army you have, Mansoor.

Pakistanis in the West considered the Bengalis as second rate Muslims and that ‘distant part of Pakistan' was never given its due but was exploited like a colony. Muslims in West Pakistan have not got over the caste hangover they inherited from Hindus despite having become Muslims.

If you remember the Awami League had won 167 seats and had an absolute majority in the National Assembly and yet they were not allowed to form the national government. There was no way you were going to hold them down. Even if the Indian army had not gone in, the people who comprised the majority of the country would have jettisoned the smaller part as it was being treated as though it was a despised minority.

>> Look whatt you got out of it. Bangladesh which is still a Muslim nation. <<

Yes it is still a Muslim nation. We would not have it any other way. We do not believe in forcing people to change their religion, like Islam does. We know those Bengalis were originally Hindu/Buddhist but still we have no interest in pushing our faith on them because our faith forbids it as it considers all faiths to be different paths to salvation (whatever that is).

>>With ISI's teeth much inside Bangladesh, you will always find the areas connecting to Bangladeshi Border safe heaven for ULFA (United Liberation Front of Assam) and different anti Indian groups, who carry out series of attacks inside that region and causing headache for the Indians.<<

You were quick to deny any ISI hand in Mumbai. But now you proudly proclaim that the ISI is behind ULFA and other separatist violence in the East. Are we not justified in attacking you for this invasion of our sovereignty?

>>Be sure Pakistan is well prepared this time. The Indian cow will now be pulled down and the fate of cow is always a slaughter house... you bet<<

You slaughtered nearly 80 million of us in about a thousand years according to some estimates. But there are still about 800 millions of us around. With better equipment in your hands now you can salivate about how much more quickly you can do the job of slaughtering 800 million cows. What will you do with all those carcasses? Human skull and leather lampshades for your homes and fancy human leather handbags for your wives?

>>You try to beat your chest on Kargil. But you failed to realize that Pakistan only vacated those hills due to US Pressure and Indians were totally failed to subdue the fighters at that time. Just say thanks to Clinton and do not hide the truth.<<

Good to know that when the US says jump, you leap out of your jackboots. Thanks to Clinton we avoided more Pakistani and Indian deaths.

All it took was a phone call from Colin Powell for Musharraf to see the light after 9/11. His leap was even more spectacular, he did an elegant U-turn in midair.

And this is the reaction of Indira Gandhi during the 1971 war to a US threat: General Tewari, who relates this story, was present at a briefing the three defence services held for Indira Gandhi. She was seated at a large table. On one side was General S H F J Manekshaw, the army chief, and on the other Admiral S M Nanda, the navy chief.

During the course of the presentation, the admiral intervened and said: 'Madam, the US 8th Fleet is sailing into the Bay of Bengal.' Nothing happened; the briefing continued. After sometime, the admiral repeated, 'Madam, I have to inform you that the 8th Fleet is sailing into the Bay of Bengal.' She cut him off immediately: 'Admiral, I heard you the first time, let us go on with the briefing.'

All the officers present were stunned. Ultimately, their morale was tremendously boosted by the prime minister's attitude. She had demonstrated her utter contempt for the American bluff.

Pakistan always claimed their army was never in Kargil, you did not even accept the bodies of your dead soldiers, we buried them according to Islamic rites. So are you now admitting that it was the Pakistani army after all which had sneaked into Kargil?

>>One thing more, Keep posting the verses and Hadiths of your choice. They are always accepted as guiding light and they will enhance the power of belief. Thanks for helping me doing that...Plato!!!<<

I will take your advice. Here is a part of a nice little poem I found in Ibn Ishaq (page 580, of The Life of Muhammad) that will warm the cockles of your heart. It sounds very much like some of the stuff you post:

"..The day we trod down the unbelievers

And found no deviation from the apostle's order

In a battle mid which the people heard only

Our exhortations to fight and the smashing of skulls

By swords that sent heads flying from their base

And severed the necks of warriors at a blow,

Often have we left the slain cut to pieces

And a widow crying Alas! Over her husband

‘Tis God not man we seek to please;"




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