69 million page views

Reaply to Seamus MacNemi's reply

Reader comment on item: Where the Nazi "Big Lie" Endures
in response to reader comment: Reply to Ianus

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), May 6, 2007 at 05:36

Seamus MacNemi wrote :

> I take your thoughts with gratitude for the honesty expressed in your thinking.

I can only repeat your words .

> I do, however, disagree somewhat. I have lived in communities where Moslims and Jews get along quite well together

I'd like to hear more documented voices to that effect. In the meantime I am concerned about voices telling me how increasingly insecure Jews living in France or the UK feel whenever they happen to be in a Moslem neighbourhood.

> and I know that in the past, especially in Spain and in Turkey there was quite a famous collaboration between Muslims and Jews.

It's very kind of you to call it "collaboration", although the Jews at that time might have preferred "partnership" and "equality" which Islam is most enemical to.

> The "Rambam", Moses Ben Maimon or Maimonides as He is sometimes called, was the physician to the Sultan of Cairo,

With such unrepresentative examples you can prove anything. Tell us instead the story of Shabbatai Zevi , the would-have-been Messiah , who ended his career as a good Moslem .

> and when my ancestors were driven out of Spain by Queen Isabella and her inquisition along with the Jews and Moslims, The Turkish Sultan invited many, not only Jews, to live in his lands. He recognised the advantage that people like us who were industrious and far sighted would be to him in his reign.

He was really far-sighted. By inviting and privileging the Jews he created at least one class who was not opposed to the Ottoman tyranny . The rayas (literally "the cattle" - the nations subjected by the Turks) were at last disunited in their hatred against the oppressive and blood-thirsty Turks.

> The only thing we could not do was to aspire to the position of the Sultan.

I'd imagine there were many other things the Jews could not aspire to. E.g. evading the humiliating jizya and hoping that in case of a conflict between a Jew and a Turk the qadi would aquit the Jew . Instead of relying on your eulogy of the Turks I'd rather point to Bat Ye'or 's study "The dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam"

The link below gives a review of the book with Dr. Pipes' very positive comment on it .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dhimmi:_Jews_and_Christians_Under_Islam

> So, we were given, more or less, a free hand to pursue our own interests without fear of outside interference.

You call it "a free hand" ? Strange freedom it must have been as it did not rest on any fixed and respected laws or contracts , but depended totally on the caprice of individual rulers.

> Of course, this all meant little of nothing to us as we were free to be who we were and we didn't have the authorities always breathing down our necks and spies running about the place looking for any excuse to betray us.

"Free" ? Some other successful minority also fancied they were free. I mean the Turkish Armenians.

> It might suprise you to know that many of my folk rose to some quite prominent positions in the Muslim world even though we were not Muslims.

No , it doesn't surpise me. What surprises me is that you don't mention how precarious any high position in the Ottoman Empire was.

> We were who we were and no anount of fancy ritual gibberish or majic words and spells would ever change any of that.

Are you sure ? In the Ottoman Empire you had no rights protecting you. An arbitrary whim of a vizier or a sultan could deprive you of all your wealth and influence within minutes. And if reports of foreign trevellers and diplomatcs are to be trusted , the wealthier a raya , the more he was exposed to Turkish envy, malice and greed .

> So He didn't even try to convert us.

How merciful of Him ! You didn't even have to pay the devshirme.

> That was the real fear of the church and one major reason for the crusades. We were beyond the pale of the church in every way and they could not touch our thinking. So they sought to eliminate us and the Jews along with us.

Times were unenlightened and crude.

> In our history, my folk have born many of the same libel accusations as the Jews, and I am often given to wonder who they would hate and fear more, Me or the Jew who stands next to me. Given a true choice of targets I think I would be the prefered choice simply for the fact that in matters of aquisition and money as well as political power, my own ambitions would far outstrip any the Jew might have.

You speak all the time "my folk", "my folk" ... Now you mention euphemistically your insatiable greed of power and money ... Who are you anyway ? ... A free mason , a scientologist with medieval pedigree or what ?

> After all, my folk wrote much of the book that the Jew reads when it comes to wealth and power. As well, we tought him how to fight and we put the gun in his hands so he could fight. So if anybody has a beef, now you know where to bring it.

You and your folk seem to possess all the virtues the Jews may dream of aspiring to. Any vices though ?

> Leave the Jew alone to live his life as he sees fit and all will be well with you.

Are you directing this sentence directly at me ? In that case either there is a misunderstanding or you have chosen a strange phraseology.

> Think to do otherwise and you will have us to deal with.

.... "us" ? Your constant reference to "my folk" , "my folk" sounded in my ears as "my tribe" , my clan", "my herd" ... With the language you apply now , I feel confirmed in my presentment . The historiographer has imperceptibly sunt to the phraseology of a thug .

> That, I can assure you, will not be a pleasant experience for you.

As to "my folk" (we are no tribe, and we have long since overcome the clan system) , we can be also extremely unpleasant if treated unpleasantly , but we are quite susceptible and grateful to rational discourse .

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Submit a comment on this item

<< Previous Comment      Next Comment >>

Reader comments (109) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
2two lies in Nazi propanda popular with the islamists [74 words]mythJan 31, 2010 10:10168173
request for reference [37 words]Ichil LEIBNov 20, 2007 16:13114128
1Short term appeasement, long term catastrophe [126 words]T. Rajah-BalajiSep 20, 2007 02:06109247
Where the Nazi " Big Lie " endures [155 words]Jaisingh ThakurJul 19, 2007 09:49104047
1the first victim of war is ...the truth [151 words]Phil GreendJun 19, 2007 23:5399604
Britain's propaganda in the First World War [127 words]Daniel Nussbaum II, M.D., FAAPMay 28, 2007 17:2995054
1the biggest amount of documents about nazism and islam on the web [41 words]aval31May 14, 2007 03:4792773
1Compliment to AVA 131 [31 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 17, 2007 23:5992773
a lonely little french resistant on the web. [153 words]aval31May 21, 2007 05:1192773
1Reply to AVA 131 [117 words]SeamusMacNemiMay 22, 2007 08:4792773
Nice link [2 words]orange yonasonMay 27, 2007 23:5992773
LIES HAVE UNFORTUNATELY ENDURED [169 words]V. RAJAGOPALANMay 7, 2007 08:0091955
1Lies have unfortunately endured [164 words]JimJun 26, 2013 16:2891955
Reader Jim is --almost-- right [215 words]PrashantJun 27, 2013 21:1291955
The big picture problem [281 words]moderate MuslimMay 6, 2007 21:4191897
2Moderate Muslim, stop lying! [299 words]MosheMay 8, 2007 09:4791897
2Reply to Moshe [11 words]Seamus MacemiMay 9, 2007 01:5791897
More fantasy from our dear M&M [227 words]dhimmi no moreMay 9, 2007 07:5091897
Seamus, what's wrong with English? [18 words]MosheMay 10, 2007 07:1391897
Comment on Moshe's response to "moderate" Muslim [24 words]orange yonasonMay 28, 2007 00:2391897
1Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin Al Husseini and Nazism [193 words]Pete FarmerMay 6, 2007 00:5191791
Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin Al Husseini and Nazism [112 words]IanusMay 6, 2007 18:1591791
Reply to Ianus: On Al Husseini [675 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 7, 2007 21:3391791
1On Al Husseini [1865 words]IanusMay 10, 2007 16:1291791
Reply to Ianus: I think we've finally made it [186 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 10, 2007 20:4791791
Where the Nazi "Big Lie"Endures [99 words]S.C.PandaMay 4, 2007 03:3591600
wrong calculus [66 words]Yuval Brandstetter MDMay 8, 2007 16:1091600
Evil men find evil ways [130 words]Joe Schmoe USAMay 4, 2007 00:1291586
The Big Lie [292 words]Steven D. CordsMay 3, 2007 23:2391581
1Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism [16 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
HarrakMay 3, 2007 22:1691566
Question for Mr Pipes [52 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
uptoface -PhD. Université de Montréal-May 5, 2007 21:4191566
AntiSemitism and AntiZionism [120 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 6, 2007 21:2891566
Asking For Daniel Pipes Opinion [111 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Johanes van BreukelenMay 7, 2007 23:2291566
Reply to Harrak [26 words]EuropeanMuslimMay 9, 2007 00:0991566
2New Europe is anti-everybody [23 words]Paolo FernandiMay 9, 2007 09:4291566
Anti-zionism and anti-semitism [157 words]EuropeanChristianMay 9, 2007 19:5391566
Reply to European Muslim [127 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 10, 2007 22:5591566
Anti-Zionism is a "PC" code for anti-Semitism, while "anti-Semitism" itself is a misnomer. [176 words]MosheMay 12, 2007 17:3291566
to Dr Pipes - where uptoface PhD comes from - Quebec [57 words]James BurkeMay 19, 2007 02:0891566
Where the Nazi " Big Lie " endures : A reply to uptoface PhD. [165 words]Jaisingh ThakurJul 19, 2007 10:1591566
2Anti-Israel Reporters Revealed [922 words]AnonymousMay 3, 2007 22:0991563
Sometimes Might Makes Right [219 words]BlackspeareMay 3, 2007 17:0691522
"co-evolution of prejudice" [168 words]SheerahkahnMay 3, 2007 15:5891514
To paraphrase [210 words]donvanMay 3, 2007 17:2191514
Literacy is prerequisite for any serious discussion [17 words]Alexander GutmanMay 5, 2007 23:5491514
Alexander Gutman, [15 words]Joe Schmoe USAMay 6, 2007 19:5291514
Well now, Alex, [15 words]donvanMay 7, 2007 09:2091514
where will it all end [43 words]terryMay 3, 2007 15:1791507
The consequence of Jihad. [115 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 3, 2007 23:1891507
Reply to Terry, The destructive power of Hatred [789 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 5, 2007 22:5091507
your translation is wrong [71 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
martien penningsMay 3, 2007 14:3691504
Islamic Al Taquiya is Much Older than Nazism- Muslims will Teach a Lesson or Two to Nazis [87 words]SinghaMay 3, 2007 11:1691485
1Islam As A Souce Of Antisemitism [240 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 5, 2007 23:3191485
what! Chrsitiano-facist... [105 words]HarrakMay 6, 2007 00:1691485
On The Nazi Roots Of Modern Radical Islam [439 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 2, 2007 16:2491385
It all began in Eden [314 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 2, 2007 23:0691385
1"On The Nazi Roots Of Modern Radical Islam" ...A most improbable theory [469 words]IanusMay 3, 2007 17:1191385
Reply to Ianus [489 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 4, 2007 18:2491385
1Reaply to Seamus MacNemi's reply [1079 words]IanusMay 6, 2007 05:3691385
to Seamus [120 words]BillMay 6, 2007 12:1891385
Seamus MacNemi: I have a question for you [29 words]dhimmi no moreMay 6, 2007 17:2091385
Reply to Ianus [693 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 6, 2007 23:0591385
Reply to Dhimmi no more [83 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 6, 2007 23:1491385
1Another reply [1415 words]IanusMay 7, 2007 18:3691385
Our dear Seamus you did not answer my question! [21 words]dhimmi no moreMay 7, 2007 18:3891385
Reply to Bill : G-D is ONE [216 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 7, 2007 22:1191385
Our dear Seamus and his big time bogus falsafa [94 words]dhimmi no moreMay 8, 2007 19:1991385
re : Reply to Bill : GOD is ONE [233 words]BillMay 8, 2007 20:1891385
Reply to Dhimmi No More [217 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 8, 2007 23:3291385
Reply to Inspector Ianus [145 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 8, 2007 23:5391385
1Seamus, are you Jewish? [193 words]MosheMay 9, 2007 03:0891385
Reply to Dhimmi no more [131 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 9, 2007 18:0891385
1Reply to Bill? [149 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 9, 2007 18:2891385
1But you still did not answer my question [19 words]dihmmi no moreMay 9, 2007 19:0491385
1Sorry for my mistake ! [213 words]IanusMay 10, 2007 16:2091385
The bogus tawheed again [22 words]dhimmi no moreMay 10, 2007 17:4591385
Reply to Dhimmi no more [581 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 10, 2007 19:2791385
TO SEAMUS [119 words]BillMay 10, 2007 20:5591385
Reply to Dhimmi no more [105 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 10, 2007 21:0191385
"Close but no cigar"? really? And another cliche from our dear Seamus [112 words]dhimmi no moreMay 11, 2007 18:2091385
Reply to Dhimmi no more [366 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 11, 2007 22:4291385
1Reply to Moshe [981 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 13, 2007 01:5191385
What makes the "Big Lie" endure [184 words]Dr RJPMay 2, 2007 14:0791379
2Islamic lies and manipulations [203 words]G.VishvasMay 2, 2007 14:0491378
The same happened in Egypt 1400 years ago and is still happening [303 words]Egyptian ChristianMay 14, 2007 20:1791378
Blame the people not a religion [33 words]TomFeb 12, 2010 14:0291378
Amalek lives in Saudi Arabia [512 words]Yehuda Ben-Asher, MD Efrat, Gush EtzionMay 2, 2007 13:5391377
Question for Yehuda Ben-Asher, MD Efrat, Gush Etzion [49 words]Joe Schmoe USAMay 6, 2007 13:3791377
The Nazi- Arab connection has additional forms [106 words]Shalom FreedmanMay 2, 2007 10:1691369
The Third Reich is Alive [166 words]Caesar M. ArevaloMay 1, 2007 23:4491307
Israel needs English and Arabic TV stations [43 words]Haim BelisowskiMay 1, 2007 23:0491303
Biblically Ignorant [199 words]Richard BowersMay 1, 2007 22:3591301
Biblically Ignorant [127 words]MosheMay 3, 2007 04:5691301
On Biblical Ignorance [445 words]Seamus MacNemiMay 3, 2007 16:4491301
Conversion [69 words]RobJan 13, 2013 12:0691301
2A few remarks not only on big Nazi-lies [1253 words]IanusMay 1, 2007 17:2291264
Re: The Big Lie [79 words]Fred FelserMay 1, 2007 16:4591259
The Big Lie [116 words]Allan GrantMay 1, 2007 15:5691251
Joel Mowbray touches on this as well [87 words]David W. LincolnMay 1, 2007 15:3091249
The Nazi "Big Lie" Endures [197 words]M.D. AnthonyMay 1, 2007 15:1491244
"Palestinian" Islamic Hitlerist in Hebron [212 words]VickNov 8, 2021 22:4991244
Too Narrow a Focus? [549 words]Ron ThompsonMay 1, 2007 15:0691241
Refugees make good television [523 words]PatMay 2, 2007 13:2691241
inaccurate translation "Juden sehen dich an" [65 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Martien PenningsMay 1, 2007 11:0391204
Arab Fascism [209 words]Edward HalperMay 1, 2007 10:5591202
Truth [178 words]Felipe OrnelasMay 1, 2007 10:0491199
Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies... [506 words]Farid H.May 2, 2007 20:0691199
"The Big Lie" [100 words]Donald W. BalesMay 1, 2007 10:0091198
Israelis have bought into the propaganda... now what? [66 words]AaronMay 1, 2007 09:2791192

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2024 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)