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Tyler

Reader comment on item: Does the [New York] Police Department Profile? Should It?
in response to reader comment: Recent events in Canada show that if you don't pose a threat, your children just might.....

Submitted by Abdul Rahman Reijerink (Australia), Jul 4, 2006 at 08:23

I feel inadequate to respond to such a large posting in the time I have available so here are some brief notes.

Like Benedict XVI ( a man I rarely agreed with when he was Cardinal Ratzinger) I find relativism to be dangerous, so yes I do believe in absolute truth, but the only truly absolute truth is God.

Where is your proof that integration is not the norm. I only have anecdotal evidence, but most of the muslims I know are relatively integrated, this even goes for the wahhabis in my city, sure they are not assimilated, but I do not believe assimilation is a positive good in and of itself. The exceptions are the more recent immigrants.

Tyler" What are your views on countries not yet under Islamic rule?"

Tell me what countries really use muslim law, I dispute that it can even be done in the sense of a modern legal system where there must be a definitve answer for every problem. I do not view as a positive good the twisting of an independant religious legal body of opinion makers into a formal legal system bound to and serving the state as we see in Saudi etc as a good thing. It is not, and it defies tradition.

Tyler "What is your views on Jews? Christians? Final judgement?"

What are yours? read the Qur'an it will tell you, see esp vs: 5:69 it should answer your question nicely. All that we need fundamenatly is to believe in God and do good deeds.

Tyler "Do you adhere to ALL of Mohammad's teachings? What about those on women who he claims are stupid and menstruate? Or that in court, the testimony of 1 man is worth that of 2 women?"

No I do not adhere to all of his REPORTED teachings (big difference), there are so many, with poorly understood contexts. Also, I am a human being and fallible, so I fall short of what I should. But to answer the sense that you mean more directly, i) did he really say these things, and ii) do they mean what you think they do? long arguments pertaining to this, but if interested try reading female scholars like Wadud and Barlas. Just because someone has told you a) these things are genuine reports (or translations of meaning in Qur'an) or b)that this is what they really mean, does not mean that your source is correct or informed or has the monopoly on how to view these things.

Tyler "I believe that calling someone 'chicken' does not further your argument against internment. In fact, it reflects poorly on your viewpoint."

True. However I do believe that the social costs (ie in terms of how it changes our society) of internment are too high. I also believe that it is a cowards way out, especially universal internment. ex: in WWII here in Australia, we interned all Italians and Germans including loyal Australians, we were shocked to see good old american boys with Italian and German names coming to fight the Japanese in the Pacific, it was a real eye opener for us.

Tyler "I'm sure if someone did a true cost-benefit analysis of internment-verses profiling, which incidentally, is what this thread is supposed to be about, they would find a HUGE savings both in monetary, manpower, and reduced risk of attack."

How do you weigh the social cost? surely you can see that in creating different catagories of citizen we would alter our society irrevocably. How far down the road of totalitarian control are you willing to go in pursuit of the illusion of safety? It would breed informers and all the distasteful apparatus and social relations that we rightly detest about societies like China and Nazi Germany/occupied Europe, where people spy on each other and bonds of trust can erode. Ultimately I believe that it a deadend route. Social engagement is a far better route. Why alienate (further according to you since we are supposedly self alienated to begin with) whole populations when you can use them to root out the enemy hiding in their midst?

Tyler "Any true muslim who subscribes to the Koran and ALL that it teaches and ALL the tenets of the Islamic faith, is a threat to all free democracies that are not under muslim rule."

Says who? where did you learn this ultimate interpretation of Islam that says I am therefore a non-believer or a threat to you? Islam is bigger than you or me, you do n ot have the right to define it this way from your extremely limited knowledge. I find it interesting that you use your position as a canadian to nullify others right to speak on Canadian points of view ( a valid angle to some extent so don't get me wrong), but then you set yourself up as the supreme arbiter of a faith that you clearly do not believe in or practise. I further refute the idea that Islam preaches a religious state where the "priestly class" rule.

Tyler "If you won't become 'born again' then your children certainly present this risk."

I doubt it, those that do pose a risk are generally socially alienated second generation immigrants grasping at an identity that barely understand. I am an Aussie, my kids are Aussies the worst that can happen is that they will become junkies just like so many other kids in Sydney.

Tyler "By the way, It's not 'my liberties' that are for sale here but rather the liberties of a small minority"

I find it hard to believe that you can write that with a straight face. Do you just not get how liberties work, if everyone does not have them, then they are privileges not liberties, and therefore can be taken away at will. paraphrase of famous quote: First they came for the Jews, then the union leaders, then the priests, I was quite because I was scared, then they came for me, but noone came to help.

Tyler "by virtue of what is written in the Koran" [therefore life is threatened]

wrong

Tyler "and preached by Imams"

now that is closer to the truth. but if you had any idea what went on in Muslim circles you would realise that these people are despised and hated. In Australia we are having our first genuine terrorism trials in this context, the imam involved is an irrelevant breakaway from a breakaway sect (and shunned by them for his views). yes they are here, yes they made plans and tried to act on them, but we are talking about a handful of people. really. just a handful.


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (110) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
police make money off catching criminals is why profiling is unethical [119 words]jerryDec 23, 2009 09:31166177
2Profiling a must. [51 words]VictoriaAug 15, 2008 23:44136810
Profiling, really? [219 words]HeatherDec 4, 2008 09:51136810
Of Course [178 words]dfwhiteSep 24, 2006 16:3357345
How do you profile [36 words]Marie DowdlesOct 2, 2006 20:2857345
Dear Marie [54 words]dfwhiteOct 3, 2006 15:3157345
Dear dfwhite [61 words]MarieNov 8, 2006 04:3457345
Profiling has its dangers [113 words]Michael FoxAug 16, 2006 03:0553011
profiling [143 words]RieSep 28, 2006 15:5053011
Here's Looking at You [158 words]BriarsJun 25, 2006 13:2648145
19We need more than profiling: WE NEED MUSLIM INTERNMENT CAMPS NOW!!! [490 words]TylerJun 20, 2006 02:0347920
1tyler [81 words]ahmad zafireJun 26, 2006 22:2547920
2ahmad zafire [527 words]TylerJun 28, 2006 01:3847920
tyler [316 words]ahmad zafireJun 29, 2006 11:4947920
1internment of enemy aliens [54 words]terryJun 30, 2006 09:4247920
1facism yay [199 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJun 30, 2006 10:0147920
Recent events in Canada show that if you don't pose a threat, your children just might..... [1556 words]TylerJun 30, 2006 19:5947920
comfort zone [122 words]TylerJun 30, 2006 20:3447920
Tyler [1110 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJul 4, 2006 08:2347920
With you [218 words]dfwhiteSep 26, 2006 17:4347920
Do you want to Inter half the world's population [104 words]RieOct 2, 2006 20:4647920
Yes indeed! Internment camps are needed for ALL muslims now and are way overdue. [112 words]Brian McInnesOct 29, 2006 09:3547920
Rie: You made my point for me....thank you! [311 words]TylerOct 29, 2006 18:0047920
Ignorance is not bliss [347 words]AdamMar 27, 2007 17:2747920
Absurd [118 words]ParisaMar 24, 2009 02:2647920
Ethical way to protect Americans against Muslims [146 words]CandidSep 3, 2010 23:0647920
Why don't you put whys before your your co-religoists [68 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh BharatPanthiSep 7, 2010 11:2747920
Muslim interment camps in America [94 words]Betty LiportoApr 8, 2015 19:1247920
Prophet Mohammed and Islam never profile people [337 words]John BastileJun 18, 2006 11:3547859
Flawed narrations [41 words]Dawud KhuluqSep 20, 2006 22:4947859
So far... [17 words]SandiJun 15, 2006 22:2447741
More on Security Certificates... [513 words]J.S.Jun 15, 2006 18:4047733
Has Canada gone nuts? [26 words]JaladhiJun 16, 2006 12:0747733
Indeed, I suspect the general public is "nuts.." and/or suicidal (?) [402 words]J.S.Jun 16, 2006 17:4847733
Canadians are still very liberal oriented despite the election of the Conservative Government [239 words]Jeff BurkeJun 18, 2006 10:4747733
1A message for CANADA [388 words]HarrakJun 18, 2006 12:0647733
Quite correct reading, Jeff, the Canadian public is largely leftist... [163 words]J.S.Jun 19, 2006 15:3147733
1Imagine how credible your comments would be if you actually lived in Canada Harak! [772 words]TylerJun 20, 2006 02:5847733
Ottawa 300 ERR [260 words]HarrakJun 20, 2006 17:5347733
I rest my case! [23 words]TylerJun 22, 2006 02:1547733
Harrak you crack me up [222 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJun 30, 2006 11:0347733
Tyler, you keep great company [48 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJun 30, 2006 11:5347733
Go ahead and dialogue away, while we still have a democracy............ [223 words]TylerJun 30, 2006 20:2347733
thank you for correction [35 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJul 4, 2006 09:0447733
Imagine [36 words]Jonathan UsherJun 15, 2006 08:1347706
Try this for profiling! [35 words]Kevin MJun 14, 2006 19:4847688
Try this for profiling! [206 words]barbaraJun 17, 2006 04:0647688
ever heard of the IRA barbara? [43 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJun 19, 2006 12:2247688
Burn a cross? [101 words]barbaraJun 22, 2006 14:3847688
It was a joke Barbara. [322 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJun 23, 2006 07:0147688
Profiling, pluralism, and Canada as a Terrorist Haven...part 2 [939 words]J.S.Jun 14, 2006 19:3747686
Please verify your sources Sir. [55 words]YovenJun 16, 2006 13:5547686
"Several" ? - How about One! [133 words]JaladhiJun 16, 2006 15:3747686
There is no death penalty in Canada, and the juveniles can't be identified... [104 words]J.S.Jun 16, 2006 17:5847686
Is canada willing to solve the Palestinian Problem [111 words]Yuval Brandstetter MDJun 17, 2006 18:5347686
Indeed!! Actually, that WAS a suggestion under Jean Chretien Liberal Party of Canada! [84 words]J.S.Jun 19, 2006 15:1747686
not voluntarily [75 words]Yuval Brandstetter MDJun 20, 2006 07:5547686
yes, that's a consideration... [326 words]J.S.Jun 22, 2006 14:4547686
Islam a cult? look at your speech! [193 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJun 30, 2006 11:4547686
RE: Islam a cult? look at your speech! [119 words]YovenJul 6, 2006 18:4847686
venom! [148 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJul 14, 2006 05:3047686
I think.. [35 words]IdnaaJun 4, 2008 18:0447686
Profiling [35 words]steven LJun 14, 2006 18:2747685
Rev. Thomas Bayes and intelligent estimation of probability of an event, given partial iinformation [215 words]Howard T, HermannJun 14, 2006 18:0247682
Absolutely correct [19 words]Stephen CrowleyJun 26, 2006 02:1847682
Go ahead and profile me, I have nothing to hide. [224 words]YovenJun 14, 2006 14:0347675
profiling [155 words]DanJun 14, 2006 12:3747672
Profiling is a good solution [93 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
HarrakJun 14, 2006 11:5147666
who cares?. [113 words]ahmad zafireJun 14, 2006 23:1947666
Terrorism per capita [173 words]HarrakJun 15, 2006 19:5547666
An aplogist spin [90 words]VijayJun 16, 2006 15:5447666
Harrak Understands Nature of Conflict [215 words]InfidelJun 16, 2006 16:2147666
Muslim countries have the largest number of terrorists per capita.... [26 words]MosheJun 17, 2006 16:1847666
Thanks for Dr Pipes and replies for Infidel [502 words]HarrakJun 18, 2006 02:0847666
We must call back all Indias from Arab & Muslim Countries [26 words]Proud IndianJun 19, 2006 15:0347666
define terrorist [579 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJun 30, 2006 11:3547666
Abdul Rahman, are you suggesting that terrorism is "relative"? [204 words]MosheJul 3, 2006 04:5447666
definition [409 words]Abdul Rahman ReijerinkJul 4, 2006 09:3247666
inquiry [37 words]david kelsonJan 28, 2007 14:3947666
Next Justification There is Good AIDS and Bad AIDS [85 words]Ravi Ranjan Singh BharatPanthiSep 7, 2010 11:4647666
Profiling aka 'preemptive outreach?' : Dr.Pipes made the case for profiling four years ago -will they listen now? [418 words]Ben van de PolderJun 14, 2006 11:1747661
Dr. Pipes'positon regarding terrorist profiling [229 words]Carmen WaggonerJun 14, 2006 11:0747660
Profiling vs Stereotyping [247 words]Scott RoyJun 14, 2006 09:4147653
A Rational Perspective [96 words]John McClainJun 14, 2006 09:0347636
Profiling [98 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Paul RaetzJun 14, 2006 08:4847635
Should Profile [500 words]howardJun 14, 2006 08:3547634
Do Not Be Suprised That The NYPD Does It, Since It Was Hit On September 11, 2001 [110 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
AnneMJun 14, 2006 08:0247631
It does, and it SHOULD! [42 words]MosheJun 14, 2006 04:4247627
Profiling [103 words]E. N. Mayfield, Jr.Jun 14, 2006 01:5347625
" Islamism" is a political artifact. [243 words]Dr Paul ChristopherJun 13, 2006 23:3147622
police and fbi still don't get it............. [297 words]warren baconJun 13, 2006 23:2147621
Christian Arabs don't blow themselves up! [123 words]MichaelJun 13, 2006 23:0447620
And the point is ....? [226 words]Mr. BowersJun 13, 2006 22:2947619
PROFILING IS A MUST [58 words]John ManittaJun 13, 2006 21:5047616
Police and Profiling [135 words]Nenette GrunbergJun 13, 2006 20:4847614
Granny don't need profiling! [48 words]Sue ChristensenJun 13, 2006 20:3847612
American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Commitee - Not exactly a ringing endorsement of the idea [87 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Dave KatzJun 13, 2006 19:5647611
Re profiling [65 words]etrudieJun 13, 2006 19:3247610
Police & Profiling [224 words]Dan RusenJun 13, 2006 18:5747609
Who Is Complaining? [248 words]John RJun 13, 2006 18:5247607
Very good question! [73 words]MosheJun 15, 2006 03:0247607
Profiling [232 words]peter debellisDec 10, 2008 11:4747607
Profiling is common-sense [234 words]Alan NitikmanJun 13, 2006 18:2247605
A heavy blow against relativism [105 words]David W. LincolnJun 13, 2006 17:2847604
RACIAL PROFILE [135 words]DONANVJun 13, 2006 17:2747603
Absolutely, 200%, unequivocably, without question necessary [350 words]rickJun 13, 2006 17:1647602
Check the likely suspects [137 words]Ralph C Whaley MDJun 13, 2006 17:0547601
Is profiling justified given past occurrences??? [475 words]Dennis SellersJun 13, 2006 16:5247599
Racial Profiling [230 words]Steven GoldbergJun 13, 2006 16:1647596
PROFILING A MUST [38 words]Donald Grant Cheesman, USARMY (ret)Jun 13, 2006 15:5447594

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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