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Egypt and Iran v Arab invasion and Islamization and Arabization

Reader comment on item: Dhimmis No More
in response to reader comment: Once more Persians and Copts

Submitted by dhimmi no more (United States), Jan 15, 2018 at 08:48

Our dear Gato wrote:

>Oh, no, Persian did not reject the "language of God"

Then why are Persians not Arabic speakers? Any guesses?

Oh and who is this "God"? I'm sure you must be aware of the fact that the Arabic word Allah is اسم and not صفة and that al-Mufasereen realized that it is not an Arabic word

Take the case of the Muslim formula la Ilaha ila Allah or لا اله الا الله or There is no God but Allah If the word Allah really means God then this formula should be لا الله الا الله Or there is no Allah except Allah and how do you explain the word Allah going through more contractions in Surat al-Fatiha 1:2 where it says الحمد لله or al-Hamdu lel Lah!

What was the way out of this linguistic disaster? al-Tabari tells us in his Tafsir that the word Allah is a contraction of the word al-Ilah which is absolute linguistic nonsense but again this is not our topic

>throughout all the medieval period it was widely used for the most of the theological and philosophical discourse.

Oh sure and let me repeat and as per Ali Dashti 70% of كتب التراث الاسلامي were written in Arabic by Persians and not Arabs which makes you wonder that this was a case of "If you cannot beat them (the Arabs) then join them (or write their books)" and shape Islam the Persian way and replace the nasty Zoroastrian Mobeds with the equally nasty Mullahs of Islam

It is all about continuity not discontinuity

>However it was not adopted for more secular domains as poetry, nor it was adopted as the colloquial language.

So why did the Persians not write their secular books in the language of their new God Allah? What is wrong with Allah's language after all the Arabs were famous for poetry that was written in Arabic or did you forget? Any guesses?

>Actually the poetry of Rudaki, Ferdowsi and Sa'adi had little to do with God and religion,

But why was such literature not written in Arabic? Was Ferdowsi a bad Muslim?

>Hafiz, Rumi and Jami more, but the latter felt that arabized Persian language is quite adequate to express theological and philosophical truths of Islam.

The Persian language was not Arabized The Persian intellectuals used loan words from Arabic and enriched their own language Not unlike today's Arabs using loan words from let us say English unless you are willing to say that and to paraphrase "Today's Arabs Anglicized the Arabic language" Do you get it?

>e,g, the philosophical Sufi work "Naqsh al-Fusus" quite religious in nature was written half in Persian and half in Arabic.

Such work was not written for the Persian masses almost all of them would have been speaking pristine Persian with no loan words from Arabic

BTW in the case of Egypt you see this when comparing texts written in pristine Egyptian when the Demotic script of the Egyptian language is used then you compare it with a text written in the Coptic script and you will find loan words from Greek! Do you get it?

>Another important thing was the Shu'ubiya movement, namely that Persians felt that they can remain faithful to the religion of Islam without the wholesale adoption of the Arabic culture. Adoption of the Arabic script and certain amount of loanwords was deemed sufficient.

So why did this not happen in Egypt? BTW there was also شعوبية movement in Egypt and it ended in disaster and the country almost became depopulated following the Bashmour uprising (730CE-740CE) against the Arabs and their imperialism We also read about the threats by the Arab rulers of Egypt that they will "cut the tongues" of those that spoke the Egyptian language

>Was there any Shuubiya movement among islamized Egyptians?

شعوبية in Egypt did not emerge until Albert Hourani's "Liberal Age" with the likes of Taha Husein and I suspect that if Egyptians followed the Persian model of "if you cannot beat them then join them" we would have had an Egypt where Egyptians speak their own Egyptian language albeit with loan words from Arabic not unlike Iran!

>Was there any secular poetry? At least myself I am not aware of any.

So are you saying that "secular poetry" would have stopped the process of Arabization in Egypt? If so then prove it

>I can read texts in Arabic(with some efforts), I have some rudiments of Syriac(actually I have read some excerpts of Peshitta in Syriac) and I had only started to learn Coptic(as you call it Egyptian)

Repeat after me: There is no such thing as the Coptic language! There is Egyptian language and there is Coptic script Do you get it?

> some time ago but had not continued but hope to resume one day.

With respect: You need to learn to read the history written not only by the winners but also by those that lost BTW I will be writing a review of a book about Syriac texts that mention the Arab invasions between 633CE and 750CE and indeed a totally different picture emerges about early Islam and Islamic imperialism so stay tuned for this one


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (78) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
1Why did Muslims attack Persia? [406 words]PrashantFeb 17, 2018 12:44242278
2SUBJ1 [44 words]anonJan 11, 2018 09:05241827
3Paying Palestinians [154 words]Glenda UrmacherJan 9, 2018 21:21241815
Bring Back Imperialism and Colonialism [199 words]DaveDec 26, 2017 21:24241676
Christian population declines [38 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
JesseDec 24, 2017 09:25241657
Dear Dr. Pipes [157 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Debanjan BanerjeeJan 1, 2018 01:18241657
Dear Dr. Pipes [52 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 2, 2018 22:11241657
Dear Dr. Pipes [85 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 2, 2018 22:59241657
2The most absurd claim by our dear Deb and he has a long history of absurd claims Right our dear Deb? [60 words]dhimmi no moreJan 3, 2018 08:06241657
1Our dear Deb and more gems! [74 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2018 08:12241657
Happy new year dear DNM [26 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2018 12:02241657
1Debanjan exposes the mastermind behind ISIS [220 words]JeffJan 7, 2018 20:54241657
Dear Jeff [101 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 15, 2018 08:42241657
1al-Taqiyya Deb's style! [93 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 10:08241657
3Our dear Deb: Mullah كمال الحيدري says that the Qur'an is a corrupted book! What a disaster [146 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 14:24241657
1Sleuth D.B.exposes even more on the hidden hands behind ISIS [307 words]JeffJan 20, 2018 18:42241657
4Dhimmi historians [31 words]SteinDec 21, 2017 22:50241645
Imperial Church [187 words]gato brancoDec 20, 2017 04:12241625
1I disagree with your statement about Spain in 1200 [285 words]gato brancoDec 20, 2017 02:47241623
2Big Mistake By Muslims [72 words]DavidDec 19, 2017 05:00241613
1Outside ME no better [69 words]VijayDec 18, 2017 10:23241594
1Christians and Jews, start saving up for the Jizya! [314 words]Michael SDec 12, 2017 10:47241547
1Comedy time! And how to punish the US for moving the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem! Read and laugh [55 words]dhimmi no moreDec 10, 2017 16:40241523
1The Arabization and Islamization of Egypt [335 words]dhimmi no moreDec 9, 2017 08:47241503
1Were the early 20th century Turks the only nasty Muslims? [97 words]KephaDec 15, 2017 20:07241503
7Entire conflict explained in less than 20 lines [203 words]G MarcusDec 19, 2017 00:57241503
Arabs, Copts and Goths [266 words]gato brancoDec 20, 2017 02:01241503
3Arabian imperialism [86 words]dhimmi no moreDec 21, 2017 07:23241503
3Islam came to the world at the right time (for them) [451 words]PrashantDec 22, 2017 13:16241503
1The 4th option is neither mentioned nor considered [270 words]PrashantDec 25, 2017 03:23241503
1Arabian Monotheism Muhammadan's style And what happens when the barbarian invade the lands of the civilized [986 words]dhimmi no moreDec 26, 2017 16:56241503
1Islamization but no Arabization: Iran and historical discontinuity v historical continuity [567 words]dhimmi no moreDec 27, 2017 09:12241503
2Are some languages superior to others? Greek Egyptian language and Arabic in Egypt post 642CE [597 words]dhimmi no moreDec 28, 2017 08:30241503
SO what about the West [37 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 1, 2018 01:22241503
1Islamic invaders were not imperialists and western imperialists were not religious tyrants. [607 words]PrashantJan 2, 2018 05:56241503
3Our dear Deb and wearing black shoes! What a disaster! [307 words]dhimmi no moreJan 2, 2018 09:47241503
Persians [150 words]gato brancoJan 2, 2018 11:57241503
2A few questions for our dear Deb whose Hindu ancestors were brutalized by the Muslim invaders of India [290 words]dhimmi no moreJan 2, 2018 12:14241503
3Hey our dear Deb: The Qur'an says that Paul is the prophet of Allah! What a disaster! [77 words]dhimmi no moreJan 3, 2018 08:14241503
1Persian and Egyptian languages: Scripts v spoken languages [474 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2018 09:09241503
2Hey our dear Deb I have another question: Is it true that Allah converted to Islam in Q3:18? What a disaster! [107 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2018 12:11241503
Christianity is still a Western imperial legacy [116 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 8, 2018 22:26241503
Once more Persians and Copts [219 words]gato brancoJan 15, 2018 01:57241503
1Egypt and Iran v Arab invasion and Islamization and Arabization [866 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 08:48241503
2Our dear Deb and Arabian imperialism and the Shi'a tell us that the Qur'an is a corrupted book! [438 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 10:01241503
1Addendum: Greek v Egyptian language in late antique Egypt! The demise of Greek and the ascendancy of the "mother tongue"! [336 words]dhimmi no moreJan 18, 2018 10:30241503
Persian writings in Arabic [324 words]gato brancoJan 20, 2018 06:44241503
al-Lugha al-'Amiayya [175 words]gato brancoJan 24, 2018 02:09241503
1al-Lugha al-'Amiyya v the language of Allah in Egypt [337 words]dhimmi no moreJan 24, 2018 11:35241503
1The 'mother tongue" The long version! [692 words]dhimmi no moreJan 25, 2018 08:35241503
1Iran and the "mother tongue"! Persian v Arabic! [1022 words]dhimmi no moreJan 25, 2018 11:27241503
Qur'anic Arabic etc. [615 words]gato brancoJan 26, 2018 01:27241503
1Iran and Egypt, secular culture v Asateer al-Awaleen in religious garb! [634 words]dhimmi no moreJan 27, 2018 10:53241503
1Persian and Egyptian Arabic and the "mother tongue" [1364 words]dhimmi no moreJan 31, 2018 11:50241503
1Addendum The Quranic word al-Ruum is a loan word from Syriac [46 words]dhimmi no moreJan 31, 2018 12:01241503
1sermo plebeius and sermo urbanus Italian v Latin and Egyptian Arabic v Classical Arabic [179 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 1, 2018 08:19241503
Syrianized Arabic, Mekka and Quraysh [483 words]gato brancoFeb 2, 2018 02:23241503
1Footnote: مملكة الانباط or the Nabataean Kingdom and Islam [131 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 2, 2018 09:39241503
1Carl Becker revisited! Language, identity, and historical continuity v discontinuity [1160 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 3, 2018 09:31241503
fuSHa and colloquial [361 words]gato brancoFeb 6, 2018 01:20241503
L-H-M, Hanpe, lectionary etc. [485 words]gato brancoFeb 6, 2018 03:28241503
2Lahma, Hanpe v Lahm, hanif Oh and Ummi or is it 'Am ha-ares (Hebrew) [1321 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 6, 2018 18:33241503
1Language and identity: The sacred v the profane? [660 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 7, 2018 07:48241503
1Footnote: Is the Qur'an a ܩܪܝܢܐ or Qeryana or كتاب وعظ or Kitab Wa'z or Lectionary? It must be! [134 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 7, 2018 12:50241503
Arab vowels, Qeryana, Samaritans etc. [745 words]gato brancoFeb 8, 2018 03:52241503
1Language and identity: Disney and Egyptian Arabic v Modern Classical Arabic! [115 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 8, 2018 10:18241503
Boring for everyone [62 words]gato brancoFeb 9, 2018 02:20241503
Sectarian Milieu [327 words]gato brancoFeb 9, 2018 03:22241503
1Language, Identity, Culture, Vowels and Accent! [736 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 9, 2018 08:13241503
Language, Identity, Culture and Old Civilizations are not conjured away! [1039 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 9, 2018 10:49241503
1Language and identity: The sacred v the profane? And BBC Arabic is a joke! [240 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 10, 2018 07:38241503
John Wansbrough's Sectarian Milieu: The Abbasids and the sacred and the profane [569 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 10, 2018 08:08241503
1So what do we now about the Qur'an as a text? [788 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 10, 2018 11:29241503
Dr Mohmed Rahoma on the language of the Qur'an and that it is not Classical Arabic and the Quranic وشهد شاهد من اهلها [196 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 15, 2018 10:09241503
1Thanks for the article 'Dhimmis No More' [601 words]PrashantDec 8, 2017 11:29241498
There are differences [50 words]bernardDec 18, 2017 19:28241498
2So... [13 words]AlexDec 7, 2017 21:00241490
Let's Win the War of Ideas [212 words]DaveDec 7, 2017 18:12241489

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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