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re: dhimmi no more - bogus translation or incomplete verses

Reader comment on item: Mahram Despotism vs. Saudi Women
in response to reader comment: Islam is really the religion of the Arabs only and you ain't one

Submitted by bill's girl (Saudi Arabia), Oct 31, 2009 at 16:36

To begin, I feel compelled to address the following issue first.  You write:

I state again, I never claimed to be Arab!  And, I ask that you give me the same courtesy that I give you, a little respect as a fellow human and seeker of knowledge.  Thus, I must insist that you refrain from calling me 'ms ignorant' or 'darling'.  As for what follows:

You write:>

1st of all, you are only quoting part of the ayah!... Look at the Quran and read it.  Don't copy and paste (from whatever anti-Islam source) a few lines and expect to convince me with that!  You keep repeating the same part of the ayah, and no more... Have you no other proof? You previously asked:

Well, here is the complete ayah, copied directly from the Arabic Quran followed by the translation from 'Interpretation of the Meanings of The Noble Qur'an' by Dr. Al-Hilal and Dr. Khan (theNobleQuran.com), plus definitions from Vocabulary of the Holy Qur'an' compiled by Dr. Abdullah Abbas Nadwi':

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ بِلِسَانِ قَوْمِهِ لِيُبَيِّنَ لَهُمْ فَيُضِلُّ اللّهُ مَن يَشَاء وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ

And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allâh misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (Ibrahim 14:4)

لِيُبَيِّنَ – لِ = to,   يُبَيِّنَ = make clear

لَهُمْ – for them

You wrote:

I am not editing anything, I am using the complete text, not only what suits me for my argument as you do!

And, again, I am not hindi or pakistani.  I am American!  However, by the way you write and by your obsession with 'hindi, pakistani, tablighee', I might be tempted to suggest that you may be the hindi or pakistani.  Also, I have asked you to refrain from referring to me as 'darling'.  Please find a more tactful way of addressing people.

You write:

I am not suggesting that Moses being sent only to the Jews or Jesus only to the Aramaics is the correct view... I am stating that your argument/logic suggests it.

Bogus?... your whole argument is bogus.

You further write:

>

Despite what you may hope to accomplish by your name calling, it is in fact Aramaic (some may argue Hebrew), not Syriac...

I quote Steven Gertz from Chritisanitytoday.com:  "Aramaic was the dominant Semitic language of Jesus' time.  Emerging around 1000 BC in several Aramean kingdoms, Aramaic spread through the conquests of the Assyrian, Babylonian, and Persian empires to encompass the entire Middle East, stretching from Egypt to Pakistan.  In the Holy Land, Aramaic supplanted Hebrew as the language of the people sometime between 721 BC, the year Israel's capital Samaria fell to Assyrian invaders, and 500 BC, following the fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon.

The return of Jews to Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the Temple did not undermine Aramaic's newfound status in Hebrew culture.  Aramaic appears at times in the Old Testament, and recent evidence gathered from the Dead Sea scrolls suggests that the apocryphal book of Tobit was written entirely in Aramaic.  The Gospel of Mark quotes Jesus in Aramaic several times; the best known of these may be his words on the cross – "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" … Judging from its renderings in Matthew and Luke, some scholars think Jesus composed the Lord's Prayer in Aramaic.…

… Aramaic was the language of the Middle East at the time, among Jews and Gentiles alike.  Inscriptions in churches across the Holy Land attest to this – scholars have even found early Aramaic copies of the Bible…

Today, the majority of those who use Aramaic as their mother tongue belong to the Syrian Orthodox Church … "

And Fr. Massimo Pazzini of the "holy land" quarterly: "The Hebrew language, the same language used in writing the Books of the Old Testament…

Besides Hebrew, there was another language – Aramaic – which had already been used along side for some centuries.  This language was the "familiar" language which the people spoke in most of the villages and towns of Palestine, particularly in the North (Nazareth, Capharnaum, etc) Where Jesus was educated, grew up, and spent the major portion of His life.  It was also understood and spoken outside the confines of this region.…

One incident recorded in the Gospel of Luke (Luke4:16-30) helps us understand that the Hebrew language was familiar to Jesus.  In this passage, it says that Jesus read the Scroll of the Law (from Prophet Isaiah) in the Synagogue at Nazareth.  Certainly this Reading was done in Hebrew.  The few words that Jesus added by way of comment were most probably spoken in Aramaic.  A little like our Church, before the liturgy was reformed, when the Readings were proclaimed in Latin but the Homily was given in the native language of the people.  This, therefore, was the atmosphere in which Jesus grew up.  It was a multi-lingual environment in which Hebrew and Aramaic had to at least have the advantage of usage in the ordinary conversations of daily life.

… These Words, found in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, are interpreted for us as a Prayer of Jesus.  They were in fact the beginning of Psalm 22, spoken by Jesus in Aramaic, and faithfully written down by the Evangelists in Greek.  It is possible that the Evangelists wished to preserve and hand down through their writings some words certainly spoken by Jesus, words which the Early Christians (since they spoke Aramaic) faithfully remembered…

Specialists of the Aramaic language have analyzed closely this topic, and had come to distinguish various Aramaic dialects in the contemporary Palestine of Jesus as testified to by inscriptions thus discovered. Based on this data, they are able to distinguish seven dialects that were shared by seven different localities in this small region: 1. Aramaic of Judea. 2. Aramaic of Southern Judea. 3. Aramaic of Samaria. 4. Aramaic of Galilee. 5. Aramaic from beyond Jordan. 6. Aramaic from Damascus. 7. Aramaic spoken in the Orontes River Basin of Syria. …

Jesus certainly spoke the Aramaic dialect of Galilee…"

Abraham Geiger suggests that Mishnaic Hebrew was an artificial creation of Rabbis whose native tongue was Aramaic .

And, Matthew Black, an expert of Aramaic and proponent of the idea that Hebrew was a dead language in the time of Jesus says: "… the Aramaic speaking masses… could no longer understand Hebrew."

Douglas Hamp, in his introduction in 'Discovering the Language of Jesus, Hebrew or Aramaic?' considers arguments for Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, but makes no mention of Syriac.

Gabriel M. Sawma in his A study in the Aramaic Language of Jesus  states: "There have also been claims by various scholars that clear traces of Aramaic can be found in the origins of Hebrew.3 … Recently, various studies4 have emphasized that Aramaic may have influenced the Hebrew language very strongly, mainly in the second half of the first millennium BC up to the beginning of the Christian Era. …Passages of the Old Testament written in the Aramaic language are called Biblical Aramaic. They occur in Ezra 4:8; 6:18 and 7:12-26. Daniel 2:4,7:28; and the gloss in Jer. 10:11 and Gen 31:47. … Various scholars have tried to show that the original language of a number of books from the Persian and Hellenistic periods, were written in Aramaic, and that they were later translated into Hebrew. This view has been presented in connection with Job, Koheleth, Daniel, Esther, 1 and 2 Chronicles, proverbs, and Ezekiel11 … In the New Testament, various Aramaic words or expressions occur, e.g. "Talitha Cumi" (little girl, stand up) Mark 5:41; "Ephphata" (etphtah, be opened) Mark 7:34; "Eli, Eli, Lama Shabachthani" (my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me) Matt.27:46, Mark 15:34; "Rabboni" (my Lord) Mark 10:51, John 20:16; "Maran Atha" (our Lord, come) Cor. 16:22. … Aramaic influence is apparent in personal names such as " Cephas" John 1:42, 1 Cor 1:12 and "Tabitha" Acts 9:36, 40, and in place names, including "Akeldama" (field of blood) Acts 1:19; "Gesthsemane (oil press) Matt 26:36, Mark 14:32; and "Golgotha" (skull) Mark 15:22 "

At any rate, Omniglot.com states: "The origins of the Syriac script are shrouded in mystery. It was orginally used as the medium for the extensive religious literature of Syrian Christians. In 489 AD there was a schism between the east Syrian followers of Nestorius in Persia and the west Syrian followers of Jacob of Edessa. … Aramaic, a Semitic language that was the lingua franca of much of the Near East from about 7th century BC until the 7th century AD, when it was largely replaced by Arabic. Classical or Imperial Aramaic was the main language of the Persian, Babylonian and Assyrian empires and spread as far as Greece and the Indus valley. … Aramaic was once the main language of the Jews and appears in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is still used as a liturgical language by Christian communities in Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, and is still spoken by small numbers of people in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, Armenia, Georgia and Syria.

Aramaic has also been written in versions of the Latin, Hebrew and Cyrillic alphabets, though the Syriac is the most widely used script to write Aramaic.

Syriac, an eastern dialect of Aramaic spoken by Christians in the lands in between the Roman and Parthian empires between the 1st and 12th centuries. Syriac is still used used nowadays as ritual and literary language by speakers of Neo-Aramaic in Syria. It is also used for sermons in Syrian churches in the southern Indian state of Kerala."

Furthermore, according to Wikipedia:

1.      Aramaic is a Semitic language with a 3,000-year history.[3] It has been the language of administration of empires and the language of divine worship. It was the day-to-day language of Israel in the Second Temple period (539 BCE – 70 CE), the original language of large sections of the biblical books of Daniel and Ezra, likely to have been the mother tongue of Jesus of Nazareth and is the main language of the Talmud. … Aramaic's long history and diverse and widespread use has led to the development of many divergent varieties which are sometimes treated as dialects. Thus, there is no one Aramaic language, but each time and place has had its own variety. Aramaic is retained as a liturgical language by certain Eastern Christian sects, in the form of Syriac, the Aramaic variety by which Eastern Christianity was diffused…

2.      Syriac is a dialect of Middle Aramaic that was once spoken across much of the Fertile Crescent. Classical Syriac became a major literary language throughout the Middle East from the 4th to the 8th centuries.  … It became the vehicle of Eastern Christianity and culture, spreading throughout Asia as far as Malabar and Eastern China and was the medium of communication and cultural dissemination for Arabs and, to a lesser extent, Persians.  … Syriac is a Middle Aramaic language, and as such a language of the Western branch of the Semitic family. … Syriac is written in the Syriac alphabet, a derivation of the Aramaic alphabet. … Syriac began as an unwritten spoken dialect of Old Aramaic in northern Mesopotamia. …  The earliest example of Syriac, rather than Imperial Aramaic, is in an inscription dated to 6 AD, and the earliest parchment is a deed of sale dated to 243 AD.  Other early inscriptions were found at Sumatar Harabesi.  All of these early examples of the language are non-Christian."

3.      "Jesus" (pronounced /ˈdʒiːzəs/) is a transliteration, occurring in a number of languages and based on the Latin Iesus, of the Greek Ἰησοῦς (Iēsoûs), itself a Hellenisation of the Hebrew יהושע (Yehoshua) or Hebrew-Aramaic ישוע (Yeshua, Joshua), meaning "YHWH rescues" or "YHWH delivers".[


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (54) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
No one lay awake at night because Saudi women couldn't drive [121 words]Anon.Aug 2, 2019 15:19252240
Pity the sons-in-law of these Saudi women. [45 words]M.D.Jul 20, 2009 20:55159083
1Women's Lack of Rights Should be Focused on Much More [354 words]Ron ThompsonJul 20, 2009 18:37159079
Mahram Despotism vs. Saudi Women [164 words]Firozali A.MullaJul 20, 2009 01:34159047
1Confused Mulla [47 words]VijayJul 25, 2009 12:05159047
Mahram Despotism vs. Saudi Women [153 words]firozali A. MullaJul 25, 2009 21:38159047
12Our dear Mulla and the absurd [495 words]dhimmi no moreJul 26, 2009 07:13159047
9Our dear Mullah and the law [694 words]dhimmi no moreJul 27, 2009 07:28159047
We have one the Quran. [81 words]firozali A. MullaJul 27, 2009 22:33159047
9Our dear Mullah seems to have nothing to say [498 words]dhimmi no moreJul 30, 2009 06:11159047
Our dear Dhimmi no more... plz [466 words]Bill's girlOct 25, 2009 02:52159047
7our dear Bill's girl and breast feeding of the adult and Arabian imperialism and other sordid matters [1156 words]dhimmi no moreOct 27, 2009 08:59159047
5our dear Bill's girl and more evidence that the Qur'an a book that you cannot read in Arabic says that islam is religion of the Hijazi Arabs only [314 words]dhimmi no moreOct 27, 2009 20:22159047
3our dear Bill's girl and more evidence that islam is religion of the Hijazi Arabs only part deux [377 words]dhimmi no moreOct 28, 2009 07:17159047
3our dear Bill's girl and more evidence that islam is religion of the Hijazi Arabs only part trois [362 words]dhimmi no moreOct 28, 2009 07:35159047
re to dhimmi no more - 'Islam is for Hijazi Arabs' [1118 words]bill's girlOct 28, 2009 07:43159047
3Islam is really the religion of the Arabs only and you ain't one [461 words]dhimmi no moreOct 30, 2009 07:27159047
re: dhimmin no more - Hejaz [68 words]jessieOct 30, 2009 13:17159047
3Our dear Jessie victim of Arabian imperialism [544 words]dhimmi no moreOct 30, 2009 21:45159047
4our dear Bill's girl and Islam is the religion of the Hijazi Arabs only the long version [2932 words]dhimmi no moreOct 31, 2009 10:49159047
4Our dear Bill's girl and the word tablighees and Islamic delusions [381 words]dhimmi no moreOct 31, 2009 13:52159047
1re: dhimmi no more - bogus translation or incomplete verses [1972 words]bill's girlOct 31, 2009 16:36159047
re: dhimmi no more - discrediting the 'breast-feeding of the adult' [1853 words]bill's girlOct 31, 2009 18:09159047
quotes? [33 words]jessieNov 1, 2009 03:28159047
get a grip [221 words]jessieNov 1, 2009 03:45159047
hagarism [190 words]jessieNov 1, 2009 04:03159047
6Now Our dear Girl admits that there is such thing as hadith breast feeding of the adult and as if we did not know [286 words]dhimmi no moreNov 1, 2009 07:00159047
4Our dear Girl Bill's girl that is and hadith breast feeding of the adult and the fun goes on and on [234 words]dhimmi no moreNov 1, 2009 09:17159047
4Our dear Girl discredits a hadith that is regarded as hadith sahih and it is breast feeding of the adult hadith and what a scandal [91 words]dhimmi no moreNov 1, 2009 09:22159047
4Our dear Girl whose daddy is bill and his lesson in liguistics and history of language [912 words]dhimmi no moreNov 1, 2009 13:21159047
1tablighee by dhimmi no more [387 words]bill's girlNov 2, 2009 06:40159047
5Our dear Jessie and on being clueless [427 words]dhimmi no moreNov 2, 2009 07:24159047
6The Muslim mind and poor Muslim education [294 words]dhimmi no moreNov 2, 2009 07:33159047
5Our dear Jessie and her poor Muslim education [434 words]dhimmi no moreNov 2, 2009 08:04159047
dhimmi... you have no clue as to who I am or whence I come! [2536 words]bill's girlNov 2, 2009 10:57159047
right, dhimmi the expert on everything and everyone [381 words]bill's girlNov 2, 2009 11:20159047
5Our dear Girl and Syriac [40 words]dhimmi no moreNov 4, 2009 11:10159047
4Teaching Arabic to wannabe Arabs and the Qur;an says that Islam is really the relligion of the Hijazi Arabs only [637 words]dhimmi no moreNov 8, 2009 16:36159047
4Cherry picking time and Islamic paganism [379 words]dhimmi no moreNov 10, 2009 11:44159047
4Mistakes in grammar and spelling in the Qur'an and I'm in good company part deux [265 words]dhimmi no moreNov 10, 2009 12:07159047
3Our dear Girl [171 words]dhimmi no moreNov 10, 2009 13:01159047
4Islam is really the religion of the Arabs but it seems that 70% of the books of islam were written by Persians (gasp!) [388 words]dhimmi no moreNov 10, 2009 13:27159047
4Mistakes in grammar and spelling in the Qur'an and I'm in good company part trois [259 words]dhimmi no moreNov 12, 2009 16:29159047
7Our dear Bill's girl and monotheism [337 words]dhimmi no moreNov 12, 2009 16:56159047
3bill's girl's ad hominem & insulting argument [552 words]byzantinistNov 19, 2010 02:15159047
14Early Islam and Hagarism and Meccan Trade and the problem of the early islamic sources [1359 words]dhimmi no moreNov 21, 2010 09:32159047
dnm: good point about Quran restriction to Arabs however it has a precedent in the New Testament which was overridden [130 words]ShishirApr 17, 2013 09:57159047
What the Bible says [72 words]UgriApr 18, 2013 02:28159047
1The Denial of Muslimas [251 words]SusanJul 20, 2009 00:55159045
The Denial of Muslimas??? [177 words]bill's girlOct 25, 2009 03:06159045
7Our dear Bills' girl and reality check [563 words]dhimmi no moreOct 31, 2009 17:12159045
Dhimmi no more blog ? [25 words]Al QayyamNov 24, 2009 06:25159045
5Reading the Qur'an [76 words]dhimmi no moreNov 24, 2009 18:05159045
Wajeha al-Huweidar [24 words]SvetlanahJul 19, 2009 23:39159042

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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