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re: dhimmi no more - discrediting the 'breast-feeding of the adult'

Reader comment on item: Mahram Despotism vs. Saudi Women
in response to reader comment: our dear Bill's girl and breast feeding of the adult and Arabian imperialism and other sordid matters

Submitted by bill's girl (Saudi Arabia), Oct 31, 2009 at 18:09

I finally found the hadeeth that I believe you may be talking about in Malik's Muwatta, and again, I found that you are only quoting the part which suits your argument… totally out of context:

Section: Suckling of Older People

Book 30, Number 30.2.12:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that he was asked about the suckling of an older person. He said, "Urwa ibn az-Zubayr informed me that Abu Hudhayfa ibn Utba ibn Rabia, one of the companions of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who was present at Badr, adopted Salim (who is called Salim, the mawla of Abu Hudhayfa) as the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, adopted Zayd ibn Haritha. He thought of him as his son, and Abu Hudhayfa married him to his brother's sister, Fatima bint al-Walid ibn Utba ibn Rabia, who was at that time among the first emigrants. She was one of the best unmarried women of the Quraysh. When Allah the Exalted sent down in His Book what He sent down about Zayd ibn Haritha, 'Call them after their true fathers. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah. If you do not know who their fathers were then they are your brothers in the deen and your mawali,' (Sura 33 ayat 5) people in this position were traced back to their fathers. When the father was not known, they were traced to their mawla.

"Sahla bint Suhayl who was the wife of Abu Hudhayfa, and one of the tribe of Amr ibn Luayy, came to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said, 'Messenger of Allah! We think of Salim as a son and he comes in to see me while I am uncovered. We only have one room, so what do you think about the situation?' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Give him five drinks of your milk and he will be mahram by it.' She then saw him as a foster son. A'isha umm al-muminin took that as a precedent for whatever men she wanted to be able to come to see her. She ordered her sister, Umm Kulthum bint Abi Bakr as-Siddiq and the daughters of her brother to give milk to whichever men she wanted to be able to come in to see her. The rest of the wives of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, refused to let anyone come in to them by such nursing. They said, 'No! By Allah! We think that what the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered Sahla bint Suhayl to do was only an indulgence concerning the nursing of Salim alone. No! By Allah! No one will come in upon us by such nursing!'

"This is what the wives of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, thought about the suckling of an older person."

Book 30, Number 30.2.13:

Yahya related to me from Malik that Abdullah ibn Dinar said, "A man came to Abdullah ibn Umar when I waswith him at the place where judgments were given and asked him about the suckling of an older person. Abdullah ibn Umar replied, 'A man came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, 'I have a slave-girl and I used to have intercourse with her. My wife went to her and suckled her. When I went to the girl, my wife told me to watch out, because she had suckled her!' Umar told him to beat his wife and to go to his slave-girl because kinship by suckling was only by the suckling of the young.' "

Book 30, Number 30.2.14:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that a man said to Abu Musa al-Ashari, "I drank some milk from my wife's breasts and it went into my stomach." Abu Musa said, "I can only but think that she is haram for you." Abdullah ibn Masud said, "Look at what opinion you are giving the man." Abu Musa said, "Then what do you say?" Abdullah ibn Masud said, "There is only kinship by suckling in the first two years."

Abu Musa said, "Do not ask me about anything while this learned man is among you."

I happened to notice that it says 'Give him five drinks of your milk…' it does not say 'suckle him' as all other hadeeths regarding the fosterage through suckling specifically mention some form of the word 'suckle'. So, it could be that he is suggesting just that… give him milk, be it in a cup or bowl or other vessel, just as women today often pump their breasts to extract milk for babies to drink from a bottle. It also goes on to say that the wives of the Prophet considered this a special case for 'Salim alone'. So, this section is actually discrediting the suckling of older people!

Suckling of older people in Sahih Muslim:

Book 008, Number 3429:

Umm Salama, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), used to say that all wives of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) disclaimed the idea that one with this type of fosterage (having been suckled after the proper period) should come to them. and said to 'A'isha: By Allah, we do not find this but a sort of concession given by Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) only for Salim, and no one was going to be allowed to enter (our houses) with this type of fosterage and we do not subscribe to this view.

Book 008, Number 3430:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) visited me when a man was sitting near me, and he seemed to disapprove of that. And I saw signs of anger on his face and I said: Messenger of Allah, he is my brother by forsterage, whereupon he said: Consider who your brothers are because of fosterage since fosterage is through hunger (i. e. in infancy).

Also from Malik's Muwatta:

Book 30, Number 30.2.14:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said that a man said to Abu Musa al-Ashari, "I drank some milk from my wife's breasts and it went into my stomach." Abu Musa said, "I can only but think that she is haram for you." Abdullah ibn Masud said, "Look at what opinion you are giving the man." Abu Musa said, "Then what do you say?" Abdullah ibn Masud said, "There is only kinship by suckling in the first two years."

Abu Musa said, "Do not ask me about anything while this learned man is among you."

Book 30, Number 30.1.4:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Thawr ibn Zayd ad-Dili that Abdullah ibn Abbas said, "The milk which a child under two years old sucks, even if it is only one suck, makes the foster relatives haram."

Book 30, Number 30.1.6:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "There is no kinship by suckling except for a person who is nursed when he is small. There is no kinship by suckling over the age of two years."

Book 30, Number 30.1.10:

Yahya related to me from Malik that Ibrahim ibn Uqba asked Said ibn al-Musayyab about suckling. Said said, "All that occurs in the first two years, even if it is only a drop, makes haram. Whatever is after two years, is only food that is eaten."

Ibrahim ibn Uqba said, "Then I asked Urwa ibn az-Zubayr and he told me the same as what Said ibn al-Musayyab said."

Book 30, Number 30.1.11:

Yahya related to me from Malik that Yahya ibn Said said that he heard Said ibn al-Musayyab say, "Suckling is only while the child is in the cradle. If not, it does not cause flesh and blood relations."

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that he said, "Suckling however little or much, makes haram. Kinship by suckling makes men mahram."

Yahya said that he had heard Malik say, "Suckling, however little or much when it is in the first two years, makes haram. As for what is after the first two years, little or much, it does not make anything haram. It is like food."

And from Sahih Al-Bukhari:

No. 2477 – Narrated Aisha: Once the Prophet came to me while a man was in my house. He said, "O 'Aisha! Who is this (man)?" I replied, "My foster brothers" He said, "O 'Aisha! Be sure about your foster brothers, as fostership is only valid if it takes place in the suckling period (before two years of age)."

N. 4769 – Narrated Aisha: that the Prophet entered upon her while a man was sitting with her. Signs of anger seemed to appear on his face as if he disliked that. She said, "Here is my (foster) brother." He said, "Be sure as to who is your foster brother, for foster suckling relationship is established only when milk is the only food of the child."

From Muslim scholars:

Breast-feeding a child over two years old

Is it permissible to breast-feed a child over 2 years old? Until what age does breast-feeding make the child a relative (mahram)? Are there any exceptions to this rule?

I am asking because there are many 2 year olds in our area who need families - they need to be "adopted" in the Western sense. I would like to help these children, and expand our ummah, but too avoid hardship, I hope that there is a way that they could become relatives of my son.

Breast-feeding a child over two years old will not have the effect of making him a relative (mahram). It is permitted to breast-feed one's own child beyond two years, but two years is enough, as Allah says:

"The mothers shall give suck to their children for two whole years, (that is) for those parents) who desire to complete the term of suckling" [2:233 al-Baqarah]

If an adult breastfeeds, it does not have any effect of making him a mahram. Rather the breastfeeding that has this effect is that which takes place during the first two years of life.

The scholars of the Standing Committee said:

It is permissible for the husband to suck his wife's breasts, and if any milk reaches his stomach it does not have the effect of making him a mahram.

Shaykh 'Abd al-'Azeez ibn Baaz, Shaykh 'Abd al-Razzaaq 'Afeefi, Shaykh 'Abd-Allaah al-Ghadyaan, Shaykh 'Abd-Allaah ibn Qa'ood.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-'Uthaymeen said:

Breastfeeding by an adult does not have the effect of making him a mahram, because the breastfeeding that has that effect is five breastfeedings or more within the first two years of life before weaning. Breastfeeding by an adult does not have that effect. Based on this, if we assume that someone breastfed from his wife or drank her milk, he cannot become a son to her.

Fataawa Islamiyyah, 3/338.


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Title Commenter Date Thread
No one lay awake at night because Saudi women couldn't drive [121 words]Anon.Aug 2, 2019 15:19252240
Pity the sons-in-law of these Saudi women. [45 words]M.D.Jul 20, 2009 20:55159083
1Women's Lack of Rights Should be Focused on Much More [354 words]Ron ThompsonJul 20, 2009 18:37159079
Mahram Despotism vs. Saudi Women [164 words]Firozali A.MullaJul 20, 2009 01:34159047
1Confused Mulla [47 words]VijayJul 25, 2009 12:05159047
Mahram Despotism vs. Saudi Women [153 words]firozali A. MullaJul 25, 2009 21:38159047
12Our dear Mulla and the absurd [495 words]dhimmi no moreJul 26, 2009 07:13159047
9Our dear Mullah and the law [694 words]dhimmi no moreJul 27, 2009 07:28159047
We have one the Quran. [81 words]firozali A. MullaJul 27, 2009 22:33159047
9Our dear Mullah seems to have nothing to say [498 words]dhimmi no moreJul 30, 2009 06:11159047
Our dear Dhimmi no more... plz [466 words]Bill's girlOct 25, 2009 02:52159047
7our dear Bill's girl and breast feeding of the adult and Arabian imperialism and other sordid matters [1156 words]dhimmi no moreOct 27, 2009 08:59159047
5our dear Bill's girl and more evidence that the Qur'an a book that you cannot read in Arabic says that islam is religion of the Hijazi Arabs only [314 words]dhimmi no moreOct 27, 2009 20:22159047
3our dear Bill's girl and more evidence that islam is religion of the Hijazi Arabs only part deux [377 words]dhimmi no moreOct 28, 2009 07:17159047
3our dear Bill's girl and more evidence that islam is religion of the Hijazi Arabs only part trois [362 words]dhimmi no moreOct 28, 2009 07:35159047
re to dhimmi no more - 'Islam is for Hijazi Arabs' [1118 words]bill's girlOct 28, 2009 07:43159047
3Islam is really the religion of the Arabs only and you ain't one [461 words]dhimmi no moreOct 30, 2009 07:27159047
re: dhimmin no more - Hejaz [68 words]jessieOct 30, 2009 13:17159047
3Our dear Jessie victim of Arabian imperialism [544 words]dhimmi no moreOct 30, 2009 21:45159047
4our dear Bill's girl and Islam is the religion of the Hijazi Arabs only the long version [2932 words]dhimmi no moreOct 31, 2009 10:49159047
4Our dear Bill's girl and the word tablighees and Islamic delusions [381 words]dhimmi no moreOct 31, 2009 13:52159047
1re: dhimmi no more - bogus translation or incomplete verses [1972 words]bill's girlOct 31, 2009 16:36159047
re: dhimmi no more - discrediting the 'breast-feeding of the adult' [1853 words]bill's girlOct 31, 2009 18:09159047
quotes? [33 words]jessieNov 1, 2009 03:28159047
get a grip [221 words]jessieNov 1, 2009 03:45159047
hagarism [190 words]jessieNov 1, 2009 04:03159047
6Now Our dear Girl admits that there is such thing as hadith breast feeding of the adult and as if we did not know [286 words]dhimmi no moreNov 1, 2009 07:00159047
4Our dear Girl Bill's girl that is and hadith breast feeding of the adult and the fun goes on and on [234 words]dhimmi no moreNov 1, 2009 09:17159047
4Our dear Girl discredits a hadith that is regarded as hadith sahih and it is breast feeding of the adult hadith and what a scandal [91 words]dhimmi no moreNov 1, 2009 09:22159047
4Our dear Girl whose daddy is bill and his lesson in liguistics and history of language [912 words]dhimmi no moreNov 1, 2009 13:21159047
1tablighee by dhimmi no more [387 words]bill's girlNov 2, 2009 06:40159047
5Our dear Jessie and on being clueless [427 words]dhimmi no moreNov 2, 2009 07:24159047
6The Muslim mind and poor Muslim education [294 words]dhimmi no moreNov 2, 2009 07:33159047
5Our dear Jessie and her poor Muslim education [434 words]dhimmi no moreNov 2, 2009 08:04159047
dhimmi... you have no clue as to who I am or whence I come! [2536 words]bill's girlNov 2, 2009 10:57159047
right, dhimmi the expert on everything and everyone [381 words]bill's girlNov 2, 2009 11:20159047
5Our dear Girl and Syriac [40 words]dhimmi no moreNov 4, 2009 11:10159047
4Teaching Arabic to wannabe Arabs and the Qur;an says that Islam is really the relligion of the Hijazi Arabs only [637 words]dhimmi no moreNov 8, 2009 16:36159047
4Cherry picking time and Islamic paganism [379 words]dhimmi no moreNov 10, 2009 11:44159047
4Mistakes in grammar and spelling in the Qur'an and I'm in good company part deux [265 words]dhimmi no moreNov 10, 2009 12:07159047
3Our dear Girl [171 words]dhimmi no moreNov 10, 2009 13:01159047
4Islam is really the religion of the Arabs but it seems that 70% of the books of islam were written by Persians (gasp!) [388 words]dhimmi no moreNov 10, 2009 13:27159047
4Mistakes in grammar and spelling in the Qur'an and I'm in good company part trois [259 words]dhimmi no moreNov 12, 2009 16:29159047
7Our dear Bill's girl and monotheism [337 words]dhimmi no moreNov 12, 2009 16:56159047
3bill's girl's ad hominem & insulting argument [552 words]byzantinistNov 19, 2010 02:15159047
14Early Islam and Hagarism and Meccan Trade and the problem of the early islamic sources [1359 words]dhimmi no moreNov 21, 2010 09:32159047
dnm: good point about Quran restriction to Arabs however it has a precedent in the New Testament which was overridden [130 words]ShishirApr 17, 2013 09:57159047
What the Bible says [72 words]UgriApr 18, 2013 02:28159047
1The Denial of Muslimas [251 words]SusanJul 20, 2009 00:55159045
The Denial of Muslimas??? [177 words]bill's girlOct 25, 2009 03:06159045
7Our dear Bills' girl and reality check [563 words]dhimmi no moreOct 31, 2009 17:12159045
Dhimmi no more blog ? [25 words]Al QayyamNov 24, 2009 06:25159045
5Reading the Qur'an [76 words]dhimmi no moreNov 24, 2009 18:05159045
Wajeha al-Huweidar [24 words]SvetlanahJul 19, 2009 23:39159042

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