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More on Christians, and support for Israel

Reader comment on item: How Church Attendance Affects American Attitudes toward Israel
in response to reader comment: True Christians are called to Faith - Just as Jewish Believers

Submitted by Michael S. (United States), Sep 17, 2014 at 03:50

Shalom M. Tovey. You said,

In continuing your thoughts, we do share many concepts about what our Christianity might appear to others, if we truly thought that the Holy Spirit was the same guide to our faith as it appears in contrast to what the mainstream religions try to make it out to be. We, you and I, coming from Americanized Christianity, distilled, shaken and stirred, emerged from the those Sunday School lessons knowing about Jesus, but not taking away the most important part about being Christian, truly knowing Jesus Christ.

I spent 2-3 years associated with a "Jesus Only" Pentecostal church, with a strong bent towards "faith" (which is to say, as actually practiced, "guilt"), and many more years with churches loosely associated with what we called "Charismatic" Christianity. I may still pray at times in tongues; but nearly always pray with understanding; so I don't doubt the validity of others who feel a connection with God in this way. In the nitty-gritty of dealing with brethren in those circumstances, though, I have seen so much abuse and foolishness that I wouldn't blame onlookers from thinking we were completely mad. Human nature is alive and well in every type of Christianity. True spirituality seems to be in short supply, though -- and mainly stored, forgive my boast, in my wife. True spirutuality begins with the love of God, and first manifests itself in humility.

I don't even like to use the word "Christian"; because there is so much evil practiced in its name. Jesus Christ, aka Yeshua haMachiach, on the other hand, is beyond reproach; and his God is above all gods.

Is your name really "Tovey"? Is it an Anglicization of the Yiddish טויב ("Dove")? More to the point, are you Jewish? I am not, because my only Jewish ancestors are on my mother's mother's father's side; and we all know the rules concerning these things. I actually am somewhat observant -- by force of habit now, more than anything else. I don't eat pork and shellfish, etc., nor mix dairy with meat (fish and poultry excepted); keep Shabbat during the proper time, and have a מְזוּזָה with the appropriate scriptures in it on my doorpost. At my daughter's wedding, I gave the Aharonic blessing because I didn't know I wasn't supposed to. I just sort of stumbled and bumbled into these things, long before ever meeting a rabbi.

I guess this could be called following what you call the "Holy Spirit"; but you might not think of it as such. What I consider the "holy spirit" (purposely not capitalized, because I don't think spirits are "persons"), is simply being motivated by a desire to do what God wants me to do. If that leads me to be a religious misfit, then so be it. Wasn't Jesus also considered a misfit?

"...so many times, in nearly humanist fashion, we are told that the 'spirit' has led someone to do something other than the will of the Father and the spirit of deception is bought into the play..."

Been there, done that. The earthly comes first, then the heavenly. Some of us have been fools for God, which is actually wisdom.

As for the idea that a Jewish person who believes the LORD in the Brit Hadassah becoming 'Christian,' this is another fabrication; for Paul writes that the belief in HaMashiach by sons of Jacob is treated differently than a gentile coming to faith; and he does so with great warning to the non-Jewish believers-if the Eternal Sovereign spared not the sons of Jacob in unbelief, how much worse would it be for the goyim who would dare to think they can replace Judaism in vain. As for the baptism part, it was a Jewish practice long before it was 'Christian.' As such, I personally would not call a Jewish believer 'Christian', but brother/sister.

"Jews" and "Christians" are, in most people's eyes, labels like "Democrat" and "Republican", etc. They're thought of in zero-sum terms; so that identifying with one is seen as the betrayal of the other. I just don't do that. When my Jewish brothers and sisters are in danger (Yes, that is how I think of them), I want to help them.

To a Jew, the following might be confusing; but I think you will understand it:

Rev 11
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The word for "witness" is, of course, "martyr". A witness is someone who has seen something, and testifies about it. Believers in Jesus are witnesses of Jesus; because they tell people about what they have seen and heard and practiced in their own lives, which is the manifestation of our Lord; and the life of Messiah in us is a manifestation of God's word. Jews are also witnesses; because they speak the words of God which they, as a people, once heard in the mount. Those are God's two witnesses on the earth. The world hates both of them and tries to kill them, giving the word "martyr" the meaning most people associate with it.

Having said all that, I love Israel; and I can see that you do too.

Shalom shalom :-)


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Reader comments (78) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
"Jewish" as a religious identity? [42 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
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Church attendence and acceptance of Israel [101 words]Yechiel ShlipshonJan 2, 2017 16:20235065
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3What does it matter? [97 words]saraAug 19, 2014 22:31217261
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If you think Judaism is that bad, Christianity is even worse [42 words]DanSep 2, 2014 14:47217261
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Why people become Christians [955 words]Michael S.Sep 12, 2014 21:55217261
Michael S. I invite you to read the following article: [57 words]RabbiSep 15, 2014 14:54217261
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1True Christians are called to Faith - Just as Jewish Believers [736 words]M. ToveySep 16, 2014 16:44217261
Thank you, Rabbi, for your comment. [336 words]Michael S.Sep 17, 2014 02:51217261
More on Christians, and support for Israel [897 words]Michael S.Sep 17, 2014 03:50217261
Yes, they can all be wrong [90 words]RabbiSep 17, 2014 14:22217261
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Historical proof [494 words]Michael S.Sep 18, 2014 06:06217261
Why All the Efforts to Find Wrong - Find the Love in the Right - In the Truth [522 words]M. ToveySep 18, 2014 14:25217261
RE: And Why Again Could Yeshua Not Be the Messiah? [92 words]RabbiSep 18, 2014 14:34217261
Christians and the Best Expressions for Judaism [484 words]M. ToveySep 18, 2014 19:15217261
A Rabbi? [39 words]saraSep 18, 2014 20:40217261
This has nothing to do with Jesus being, or not being, the Messiah [667 words]Michael S.Sep 19, 2014 03:29217261
The Two Wintesses [1139 words]Michael S.Sep 22, 2014 11:56217261
Religions and common sense -- not necessarily the same thing [45 words]Michael S.Sep 22, 2014 20:59217261
Actually-Proper Church Doctrine has Everything to do With Jesus as Messiah [1459 words]M. ToveySep 30, 2014 19:10217261
leading servants [51 words]m. langeOct 2, 2014 22:43217261
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Churches' political influence underestimated. [38 words]PermReaderAug 15, 2014 12:42217173
the role played by conformism (as well as cowardice) in the success of the Left in whitewashing Hamas, et al., in our time [812 words]Kenneth H. GreenAug 11, 2014 10:30217080
In a Conformist world, Israel's best friend is its nukes [432 words]Michael S.Aug 14, 2014 14:50217080
religious leanings [17 words]samAug 10, 2014 16:18217069
Not just church attendance, but the bible affects truth and attitudes, it is the book of knowledge and wisdom, past, present, and future. [159 words]AnneAug 9, 2014 14:48217028
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Predictions and Percentages [29 words]Michael s.Sep 22, 2014 21:09216974
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Matthew 24 didn't say much about these times. [1737 words]Michael S.Sep 25, 2014 21:26216974
Prophetic outline of things to come. You don't know the obvious times! [176 words]AnneSep 27, 2014 08:31216974
No need for compliments. [329 words]Michael S.Sep 30, 2014 11:40216974
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Church attendance impact on Israel support [117 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Jim TittsworthAug 6, 2014 22:41216837
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Israel and Biblical Christians [11 words]Clifford IshiiAug 6, 2014 15:28216736
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Anti-Israel Jews are rewarded. [143 words]ToddAug 7, 2014 18:50216558
Above neck level [14 words]Michael SAug 12, 2014 15:27216558
Anti Semitism in San Francisco [20 words]Robin RosenblattAug 5, 2014 21:44216556
Arab-Israeli Debate in the USA [314 words]EmanuelAug 5, 2014 21:30216555
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w/response from Daniel Pipes
JuithAug 5, 2014 20:05216553
1How Church Attendance Affects American Attitudes toward Israel [20 words]steven LAug 5, 2014 20:00216552
Christian persecutipon [28 words]steven LAug 9, 2014 00:14216552
1A simple response to this article. [41 words]Gene C FowlerAug 5, 2014 19:26216551
1I am In total agreement with you on the truth! [160 words]AnneAug 9, 2014 15:01216551
Then how do you explain... [21 words]RealityAug 19, 2014 18:58216551
Israel and marriage [9 words]Jonathan T.Aug 20, 2014 13:02216551
Once again the minority of gays are 1.2%, maybe 10% worldwide. [111 words]AnneAug 21, 2014 07:33216551
Like most Israelis actually care [24 words]TheodorAug 22, 2014 13:52216551
Ironic [31 words]Paul SobekAug 22, 2014 16:31216551
That is the point...there is a day coming when all of Israel will be totally awakened. [25 words]AnneAug 25, 2014 10:20216551
Its called Love honey...Response to Paul Sobek [55 words]AnneAug 25, 2014 10:24216551
Interesting numbers [60 words]David W. LincolnAug 5, 2014 19:03216550
A caution re alleged "93% of Jews symphathize more with Israel" [52 words]MarkAug 5, 2014 17:33216549

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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