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The Two Wintesses

Reader comment on item: How Church Attendance Affects American Attitudes toward Israel
in response to reader comment: Christians and the Best Expressions for Judaism

Submitted by Michael S. (United States), Sep 22, 2014 at 11:56

Hi, Tovey

I enjoyed reading about your ancestry. Sometimes, in talking with a few outspoken Jews on the net, I get the impression that they think being Jewish endows them with some sort of innate spirituality; and I ws even described once as a "Jewish wannabe", as though that were something to strive for. Indeed, I do have SOME Jewish ancestry, which I am not ashamed of; and have relatives of note: mayors, professors, a soldier in the Palmach; and a famous actor -- all bearers of a unique family name that didn't exist until around 1800.

I don't look upon this as a cause for particular boasting, though: The Jews are important to the world, primarily because their history is the history of a people with a living national relationship with God. In this, the American people also have an important story to tell: a story of men and women laying down their lives to allow the distribution and understanding of God's word into the entire world. I count in my line Elder William Brewster: though never a clergyman, yet he kept together a congregation of the faithful from Scrooby to Leiden to Plymouth Bay. He composed the Mayflower Charter, and saw the brethren through a hard winter when half of them died, without benefit of either a governor or a minister. Those people came here not for financial gain, as millions do today; but simply for the privilege of worshipping God together in a way they felt He wanted us to do. Should someone with such a heritage "wannabe" part of a people who rebelled against God at every turn in the wilderness? I dare say, "not"; though I am descended from them as well.

Angels (messengers), seraphim, cherubim, etc.: The first have appeared to men; the latter have only been seen in the spirit realm. That realm is a curious place: A powerful dragon in that realm is invisible on earth, living only in the hearts and minds of men. The same goes for Michael the Archangerl, who doesn't acoompany the people of God, but actually seems to embody them:

Rev. 12:
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

In the spirit realm, then, we see Michael, who is invisible on earth; but on earth we see the brethren, who are invisible in heaven; yet they are both described as performing identically the same act against the same entity. Likewise, people on earth are continually concerned about things that will not even appear in heaven; yet the earth and our connection to it will vanish soon and quickly; but our lives in the spirit realm will go on forever! I believe this theme was central to Yeshua's teaching.

Next, the nexus of Judaism and Christianity is historical, objections of observant orthodox Jewish scholarship notwithstanding

Indeed.

And the two witnesses; I have had differing expressions of who they are; but it came down to this. Let it be sufficient to make scriptural notice on there being only two individuals who have yet to fall under the imperative of all dying once for the eternal record and being brought before the Eternal Father for their rewards. (Gen 5:24, II Kings 2:11)

Rev 12:
[1] And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
[2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

This seems to me an obvious reference to:

Zech 4:
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth.

This is another example of the spiritual vs. natural reality: In heaven there are two entities, namely, olive trees (as with Michael and the Dragon in the previous example); on earth, there are also two entities: They are called anointed ones; yet the imagery suggests that they are also providers of the anointing oil to the great congregation. Revelation also describes them as the menorahs ("candlesticks") themselves; and you know what one of those menorahs looks like: It consists of Asia (the Roman province), the base, connecting the seven lamps in Rev. 1:12 -- in brief, the testimony to the Church. The other menorah is in heaven also, its COPY being that in the former Temple, this one representing the testimony to the Jewish people.

It is through these two peoples, that God has given testimony of His power and authority. Some notable miracles of the Jewish "witness" were the defeat of the Arabs in 1948 and 1967. Zech. 14 refers to the great "plague" of what will certainly be a nuclear exchange. That will be the embodiment of was prophesied in that chapter: the "fire" that will certainly be felt, issuing forth from the words out of the mouths of both Christians and Jews. There are, of course, lots of speculations about these things; but what I lay forth here is not a speculation: It is (what seems to me) a clear statement of what has happened in the past, and what will surely come to pass within the next few years.

Shalom shalom :-)


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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Title Commenter Date Thread
Church attendence and acceptance of Israel [101 words]Yechiel ShlipshonJan 2, 2017 16:20235065
What about Iranians? [27 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
AnonAug 22, 2014 01:40217312
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w/response from Daniel Pipes
Dave CoenAug 19, 2014 19:08217261
3What does it matter? [97 words]saraAug 19, 2014 22:31217261
You're generalizing, Dave [55 words]Michael S.Aug 23, 2014 04:55217261
Judaism is incompatible with Christianity [38 words]BergAug 24, 2014 23:04217261
Understanding Judaism [97 words]Michael S.Aug 27, 2014 11:03217261
Israel needs more "Trojan Horses" [533 words]Michael S.Aug 31, 2014 18:56217261
If you think Judaism is that bad, Christianity is even worse [42 words]DanSep 2, 2014 14:47217261
Absolutes, divisions and taking things seriously [455 words]Michael S.Sep 3, 2014 20:56217261
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True Christianity Dependent Upon Jewish Roots - The WORD of the LORD [562 words]M. ToveySep 4, 2014 13:43217261
Jesus, Abraham and Israel [753 words]Michael S.Sep 9, 2014 04:28217261
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"Jews for Jesus" propaganda [34 words]JudithSep 11, 2014 11:38217261
Why people become Christians [955 words]Michael S.Sep 12, 2014 21:55217261
Michael S. I invite you to read the following article: [57 words]RabbiSep 15, 2014 14:54217261
Proof is in the Belief - Thousands of Believing Sons of Jacob Cannot All Be Wrong [523 words]M. ToveySep 15, 2014 19:25217261
1True Christians are called to Faith - Just as Jewish Believers [736 words]M. ToveySep 16, 2014 16:44217261
Thank you, Rabbi, for your comment. [336 words]Michael S.Sep 17, 2014 02:51217261
More on Christians, and support for Israel [897 words]Michael S.Sep 17, 2014 03:50217261
Yes, they can all be wrong [90 words]RabbiSep 17, 2014 14:22217261
And Why Again Could Yeshua Not Be the Messiah? [912 words]M. ToveySep 17, 2014 19:14217261
Historical proof [494 words]Michael S.Sep 18, 2014 06:06217261
Why All the Efforts to Find Wrong - Find the Love in the Right - In the Truth [522 words]M. ToveySep 18, 2014 14:25217261
RE: And Why Again Could Yeshua Not Be the Messiah? [92 words]RabbiSep 18, 2014 14:34217261
Christians and the Best Expressions for Judaism [484 words]M. ToveySep 18, 2014 19:15217261
A Rabbi? [39 words]saraSep 18, 2014 20:40217261
This has nothing to do with Jesus being, or not being, the Messiah [667 words]Michael S.Sep 19, 2014 03:29217261
The Two Wintesses [1139 words]Michael S.Sep 22, 2014 11:56217261
Religions and common sense -- not necessarily the same thing [45 words]Michael S.Sep 22, 2014 20:59217261
Actually-Proper Church Doctrine has Everything to do With Jesus as Messiah [1459 words]M. ToveySep 30, 2014 19:10217261
leading servants [51 words]m. langeOct 2, 2014 22:43217261
Have a meaningful Yom Kippur [538 words]Michael S.Oct 3, 2014 06:03217261
Catholic who believes in israel [150 words]CatholicFeb 8, 2015 21:18217261
Not true! [49 words]ColleenMay 31, 2015 20:40217261
Churches' political influence underestimated. [38 words]PermReaderAug 15, 2014 12:42217173
the role played by conformism (as well as cowardice) in the success of the Left in whitewashing Hamas, et al., in our time [812 words]Kenneth H. GreenAug 11, 2014 10:30217080
In a Conformist world, Israel's best friend is its nukes [432 words]Michael S.Aug 14, 2014 14:50217080
religious leanings [17 words]samAug 10, 2014 16:18217069
Not just church attendance, but the bible affects truth and attitudes, it is the book of knowledge and wisdom, past, present, and future. [159 words]AnneAug 9, 2014 14:48217028
Church Attendance and God's word affects American attitudes for Israel for sure! [279 words]AnneAug 9, 2014 14:33217027
Second Temple Replica Megachurch in Brazil [29 words]PezDispenserAug 9, 2014 10:39217013
1Christians Who Read The Old Testament Tend To Love Israel More [82 words]Lujack SkylarkAug 7, 2014 21:00216974
1Christians who read the Old Testament Tend to Love Israel more......response to Lujack Skylark [113 words]AnneAug 21, 2014 07:46216974
Predictions and Percentages [29 words]Michael s.Sep 22, 2014 21:09216974
How Church Attendance affects attitudes toward Isarel. Jesus was Jew..the true Messiah. Non believers come up short. [89 words]AnneSep 23, 2014 07:48216974
Matthew 24 didn't say much about these times. [1737 words]Michael S.Sep 25, 2014 21:26216974
Prophetic outline of things to come. You don't know the obvious times! [176 words]AnneSep 27, 2014 08:31216974
No need for compliments. [329 words]Michael S.Sep 30, 2014 11:40216974
The Duece You Say: Yeshua HaNazaret Meant Every WORD [979 words]M. ToveyOct 3, 2014 12:11216974
The Third Temple. Chag Sameach [1195 words]MIchael S.Oct 10, 2014 05:05216974
Ezekiel Ch 40, etc.: What the Church Should Expect; But Many Do Not [1017 words]M. ToveyOct 15, 2014 12:11216974
politics of masses [25 words]WarrenAug 7, 2014 11:03216964
Church attendance impact on Israel support [117 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Jim TittsworthAug 6, 2014 22:41216837
Testing for a Commitment Towards Israel [285 words]M. ToveyAug 6, 2014 17:08216763
Israel and Biblical Christians [11 words]Clifford IshiiAug 6, 2014 15:28216736
1Exceptions which prove the rule? [235 words]Doug MayfieldAug 6, 2014 05:15216584
The only surprise is the change in US Jewish views [169 words]Michael S.Aug 6, 2014 01:03216558
Anti-Israel Jews are rewarded. [143 words]ToddAug 7, 2014 18:50216558
Above neck level [14 words]Michael SAug 12, 2014 15:27216558
Anti Semitism in San Francisco [20 words]Robin RosenblattAug 5, 2014 21:44216556
Arab-Israeli Debate in the USA [314 words]EmanuelAug 5, 2014 21:30216555
How Church Attendance Affects American Attitudes Toward Israel [105 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
JuithAug 5, 2014 20:05216553
1How Church Attendance Affects American Attitudes toward Israel [20 words]steven LAug 5, 2014 20:00216552
Christian persecutipon [28 words]steven LAug 9, 2014 00:14216552
1A simple response to this article. [41 words]Gene C FowlerAug 5, 2014 19:26216551
1I am In total agreement with you on the truth! [160 words]AnneAug 9, 2014 15:01216551
Then how do you explain... [21 words]RealityAug 19, 2014 18:58216551
Israel and marriage [9 words]Jonathan T.Aug 20, 2014 13:02216551
Once again the minority of gays are 1.2%, maybe 10% worldwide. [111 words]AnneAug 21, 2014 07:33216551
Like most Israelis actually care [24 words]TheodorAug 22, 2014 13:52216551
Ironic [31 words]Paul SobekAug 22, 2014 16:31216551
That is the point...there is a day coming when all of Israel will be totally awakened. [25 words]AnneAug 25, 2014 10:20216551
Its called Love honey...Response to Paul Sobek [55 words]AnneAug 25, 2014 10:24216551
Interesting numbers [60 words]David W. LincolnAug 5, 2014 19:03216550
A caution re alleged "93% of Jews symphathize more with Israel" [52 words]MarkAug 5, 2014 17:33216549

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