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Reader comment on item: The 751 No-Go Zones of France
Submitted by CMD (France), Jan 15, 2015 at 10:52
Dear Mr. Pipes,
I am an American and long term resident of France, having spent the past 20 years here. Moreover, I have had extensive first hand experience with what are known as ZUS's and ZSP's in France. My mother-in-law lived near Sarcelles, for example, and I went there often over a 10 year period. I've had reason to visit, and even invest, in many others. What is more, I grew up in Detroit, so I know both the American and French versions of suburban reality.
I wanted to commend you for having the courage to go visit a few such places in person, and to express regret at your initial characterization. Very few people in your position have such courage, and depend instead exclusively on hearsay. However, I have a request, which I will come back to shortly.
It is entirely regrettable that any such areas have come to be characterized as "No-Go Zones" in the American media. It is a term invented by the American media, and is certainly not used here. Moreover, the equation of ZUS's and ZSP's with this term is also an American invention. This equation does not hold, and never did. I believe the term "No-Go Zone" found its genesis in media reports about 10 years ago about a few particularly troublesome suburbs of Paris. I would underline "a few", as in 2 or 3. There were reports of firemen having to go under police escort, and even police superiors admitting that they advised their officers to stay away unless required to go in order not to incite unnecessary exchanges. That policy was pure folly, of course, and was derided in the French press. Since then, the police explicitly refute any and all notions of zones where they do not go. They go, no matter how difficult the situation, and they make arrests. (Here is the journal of one such officer: http://bit.ly/1C9yyBd An enlightening read. It's in French, but you could eventually use Google Translate to get the gist.) To summarize, those few suburbs were no different than troubled American suburbs, and indeed are and always have been much tamer than the worst gang-ridden zones in the States.
It is very very important to understand that the vast majority of ZUS's and ZSP's are of an entirely different, and even tamer, nature. Most are, quite simply, neighborhoods where income is low and crime is relatively high -- relative, that is, for France. (I would note, in passing, that crime here is systematically lower in scale and degree when compared to the States. This is important, for most Americans imagine, as you did, that a "bad" neighborhood here must look like the Bronx. In reality, they are a horse of another color, and quite simply far less violent. In fact, the entire French society is far less violent.) As such, the police have made a list of them as places deserving more "beat cops" to counter the relatively higher crime rates. This, to be sure, is a completely banal police approach seen all over the world! In fact, it is very related to the program of increased police presence in NYC that succeeded in transforming the street scene there. Moreover, such programs in France have clearly born similar fruit. In fact, that success has led to the listing of additional ZSP's. How? The petty criminals become frustrated by the increased police presence, so they take their show to neighboring communities, often middle or upper class neighborhoods. As a result, the police take note of this shift and then list the newly targeted neighborhood as also deserving more police presence. Voila, how more get added and we find a list of hundreds today. Again, this is completely BANAL police work! It's just that they have created these acronyms -- a French national sport -- and made a list, and the American press got their hands on it and have let their imaginations run wild.
To give you just another everyday example, there is a ZUS in downtown Lyon, the city where I live now, in the Guillotiere neighborhood. Listen, I go there almost daily. It's a clean, lively part of the city -- No issues! No threats! Nothing but a neighborhood with a diverse population. If I were to blindfold you and take you to half a dozen similar neighborhoods, afterwards you would find it impossible to guess which was the ZUS among them! Based on your latest update above, I think you know the truth of what I am saying.
In short, your 751 No-Go Zones of France never existed. There are just 751 zones where police do policing.
That the American press and so-called think tanks latched onto the term "No-Go Zones" and have, in error, equated them to the list of ZUS/ZSP's is not accidental, in my opinion. The error has been deliberate, and the original authors of it intended to use it to further incite Islamophobia. Then others have gotten on board and parroted these baseless characterizations. I would ask you, yourself: How is it that, in 2006, you wrote what you did at the beginning of this page? There are grave accusations in your words. "The French no longer have full control over its territory." How did you know those things? Excuse me for pointing it out, but those assertions were absurd. If you had visited those neighborhoods back then, you would have found them to be as you did in 2013. I know, because I was there the whole time.
Which brings me to my request: Please take your expressed regret (Jan 16, 2013 update) and make of it a preface, and add it to the very beginning of this article. Do not make people dig to the bottom to find the truth, especially since we both know that most will not read past the first few paragraphs.
THIS IS IMPORTANT. This issue -- and text such as you authored in 2006 -- is being used to incite further Islamophobia on the Internet. The original authors have finally been rewarded with what they hoped for, namely mainstream media presentation of this disinformation as fact. (I am referring to recent reports on Fox News, and elsewhere.) The diatribe has brewed long enough that it has percolated into the minds and mouths of self-appointed "experts", such as Nolan Peterson and KT McFarland -- the sources that Fox used. Neither are experts, but they regurgitated the disinformation on cue. The result is that now pseudo-journalists, such as Jennifer Van Jaar of IJReview.com, and bloggers pick up the story, consider it gospel since promulgated by Fox, and add their own hysterics. Jennifer entitled her piece, "Islamists Conquer [French] Territory Without Firing a Single Shot". The characterization in her "article" is ludicrous in the extreme, but that didn't stop her from getting 37,000 FaceBook shares. This is how Islamophobia is manufactured, magnified, and made to sweep the land.
Your updates make me feel that you are someone of intellectual integrity. If so, please do the right thing and update the beginning of your piece to reflect what you now know to be the truth. I would ask you to update the title, even, since "The 751 No-Go Zones of France" never existed. Moreover, if I have given you further insights, use them to enlighten more reporters such as the one from the Huffington Post. Call him or her back and share my comments. It is important that this fallacious wave of disinformation be brought to a halt.
In the process, I would ask you to be ever vigilant in your characterizations. For example, your latest update states that "[these areas] seethe with antagonism toward majority society". Are you sure that is an accurate rendition? My experience is that it is over-drawn. If it is accurate, then it applies to all poor neighborhoods in the States, as well, where the problems are largely the same. A more accurate picture would be to paint them as frustrated by consistently high unemployment among the young, and institutional racism against anyone of North African descent. And yet, that frustration is tempered in France by generous social programs, free access to health care, world class mass transportation, and more. Furthermore, your depiction of the areas as still being "potentially explosive and dangerous" is also an overstatement, in my opinion. The truth is that eruption of unrest is relatively uncommon and wholly less violent when compared to US instances of unrest. I would challenge you to compare, side by side, an enumeration of "riots" in both France and the US over the last 20 years, noting for each the scale, the amount of property damage caused, and the amount of concomitant violent crimes, including homicide. Such comparisons would go a long way to help people put things in perspective, something they cannot do with the kind of reporting we are seeing today.
I hope you found these comments to be useful. I assure you, they are accurate.
Kind regards,
CMD
Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".
| Title | Commenter | Date | Thread | ||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 900, its the police themself [21 words] | Dennis Blond Hald Jensen | Jan 29, 2018 10:44 | 242013 | ||
| 1 | What a difference a yarmulke makes [87 words] w/response from Daniel Pipes | François Gravel | Jan 25, 2015 01:40 | 220671 | |
| 1 | MY ADVICE [170 words] w/response from Daniel Pipes | martin | Jan 16, 2015 21:27 | 220434 | |
| 2 | Hard to judge a book by its cover [785 words] w/response from Daniel Pipes | R. Craigen | Jan 16, 2015 18:49 | 220430 | |
But this doesn't mean "no-go" [122 words] | Bernd Bausch | Jan 19, 2015 20:28 | 220430 | ||
| 2 | It takes a while and then some [467 words] | Guest | Jun 9, 2015 00:40 | 220430 | |
| 1 | The real danger here [234 words] | Jesper | Jan 15, 2015 18:16 | 220401 | |
| 3 | CMD | Jan 15, 2015 10:52 | 220383 | ||
| 1 | Push the Retraction Up [125 words] | Wayne | Jan 20, 2015 00:33 | 220383 | |
| Does Sarcelles as a whole qualify? [83 words] w/response from Daniel Pipes | Anon. | Jan 15, 2015 08:42 | 220381 | ||
| 6 | How Civil War Could Come To Europe [134 words] | Dave | Jan 13, 2015 20:52 | 220344 | |
Right on [80 words] | Coach Clyde | Sep 22, 2015 13:41 | 220344 | ||
| 2 | List of ZUS on French government website has been removed [55 words] w/response from Daniel Pipes | Chris | Jan 10, 2015 10:17 | 220240 | |
| 1 | No it hasn't grown [37 words] | Bob1 | Jan 13, 2015 11:11 | 220240 | |
| 1 | Muslim no-go zones [248 words] | Mr J D Robert | Jan 15, 2015 19:47 | 220240 | |
ZUS site not accessible [48 words]w/response from Daniel Pipes | Carax | Jun 18, 2019 04:07 | 220240 | ||
| 6 | NO GO ZONES EQUALS A LAWLESS ZONE [79 words] | Charlie Hebdo | Jan 9, 2015 22:10 | 220222 | |
| 1 | You don't know what you are talking about [168 words] | UdontKnoWhatYoureTalkingAbout | Jan 12, 2015 12:03 | 220222 | |
| 2 | You know absolutely nothing or live as a hermit [285 words] | Jesper | Jan 15, 2015 17:57 | 220222 | |
Au revoir [598 words] | Michael S | Jan 18, 2015 08:18 | 220222 | ||
| 1 | That is a good point [349 words] | UdontKnoWhatYoureTalkingAbout | Jan 20, 2015 08:29 | 220222 | |
life in the Kasbah [270 words] | Michael S | Jan 23, 2015 22:44 | 220222 | ||
| 1 | Wrong [165 words] w/response from Daniel Pipes | MacTurk | Jan 9, 2015 18:21 | 220213 | |
| 4 | France bans street prayers [602 words] | surinde97 | Sep 21, 2011 01:53 | 189458 | |
| 2 | Castration of a Kafir [153 words] | spattri | Sep 24, 2011 22:14 | 189458 | |
Out of France! [44 words]w/response from Daniel Pipes | John Wilkens | Jan 10, 2015 17:45 | 189458 | ||
| 4 | Let us not forget to applaud the French [133 words] | Prashant | Sep 17, 2011 03:37 | 189372 | |
| How far are we from universal love? [99 words] | Wine Togo | May 16, 2011 03:58 | 185262 | ||
| 6 | It started with the Kosovo War [52 words] | 1389AD | Sep 4, 2010 19:38 | 177683 | |
| 4 | Bill Clinton and his infamous influences in history [251 words] | sara | Sep 5, 2010 17:45 | 177683 | |
clintons [7 words] | righchess | Feb 18, 2011 23:54 | 177683 | ||
| 1 | yugoslavia falling apart [15 words] | ggggggg | Mar 24, 2011 06:22 | 177683 | |
This is much older than you think. [80 words] | FLIT ANDERSEN | Feb 28, 2015 05:15 | 177683 | ||
| 1 | What islam is not [20 words] | John Doe | Feb 8, 2010 01:08 | 168606 | |
| 6 | Should we stop allowing muslims to come to the West ? 09' [165 words] | Phil Greend | Jun 23, 2009 19:12 | 157846 | |
We can't stop allowing them [191 words] | Tch | Jan 14, 2015 08:45 | 157846 | ||
| 2 | what next? [184 words] | Rebecca Moulds | Mar 14, 2008 14:49 | 122649 | |
Bergen: Ban on rain coats for police officers suggested! [93 words] | Mysil Bergsprekken | Feb 2, 2010 18:07 | 122649 | ||
| 2 | Who rules Britain? [164 words] | jennifer solis | Mar 14, 2008 02:48 | 122616 | |
Overeaction [117 words] | Mr J D Robert | Jan 15, 2015 20:02 | 122616 | ||
| 1 | Sensitivities !!! [273 words] | dfwhite19438 | Mar 14, 2008 00:48 | 122609 | |
| 1 | BAGNEAUX is not listed as DAI [171 words] | Ynnatchkah | Mar 13, 2008 09:55 | 122562 | |
| 1 | No Go Zones [60 words] | Linda Haslam | Feb 7, 2008 10:55 | 119718 | |
| 1 | What's next? No Go Zones for religious NeoNazis, Mafia and Drug Lords... [95 words] | Krista | Mar 13, 2008 09:13 | 119718 | |
| Dar Al Islam Zones In South America. [392 words] | Ynnatchkah | Feb 6, 2008 01:23 | 119643 | ||
| canadian govt. punishes private citizen for violating sharia [16 words] | darrell | Jan 20, 2008 00:52 | 118609 | ||
| 1 | Does this mean that [199 words] | Long live mooses | Jan 7, 2008 18:51 | 117686 | |
french arrogance [39 words] | churl | Feb 3, 2008 19:35 | 117686 | ||
Obama as savior? [105 words] | Archimedes2 | Feb 6, 2008 18:59 | 117686 | ||
ones savior is anothers demon? [48 words] | larry B | Jan 16, 2015 16:32 | 117686 | ||
| Paris, ah, Paris [84 words] | Scott A. Joseph, MD | Jun 10, 2007 04:37 | 97308 | ||
| 1 | balance please [332 words] | petermhmurray@yahoo.com | Feb 13, 2008 17:19 | 97308 | |
french military prowess [318 words] | bos | Feb 14, 2008 12:07 | 97308 | ||
| French Values = Oxymoron [55 words] | Kevin | Feb 23, 2007 12:21 | 78502 | ||
| some further comments on ZUS [931 words] | daniel | Dec 2, 2006 14:25 | 68046 | ||
agenda and fact [376 words] | paulmhmurphy | Dec 3, 2006 16:05 | 68046 | ||
agenda, fact or analysis? [1712 words] | daniel | Dec 4, 2006 20:20 | 68046 | ||
What do you call this " Sudden Islamic Conversion Syndrome " ??? [156 words]w/response from Daniel Pipes | Kishmish | Dec 5, 2006 18:47 | 68046 | ||
addendum [617 words] | daniel | Dec 6, 2006 02:53 | 68046 | ||
rejoinder to daniel [741 words] | paul murphy | Dec 7, 2006 07:27 | 68046 | ||
I second the request for an update [306 words] | Archimedes2 | May 5, 2007 14:18 | 68046 | ||
| WHY NO CORRECTION? [22 words] w/response from Daniel Pipes | Chappy | Nov 30, 2006 03:42 | 67826 | ||
| Martial Law Time. And, [61 words] | Greg Halvorson | Nov 29, 2006 12:32 | 67745 | ||
| France is no Iraq [102 words] | chuco | Nov 29, 2006 11:06 | 67723 | ||
| 1 | France is no Iraq yet . [143 words] | Ianus | Nov 29, 2006 17:09 | 67723 | |
| Ha Ha France!! [20 words] | Abu Wen | Nov 29, 2006 02:49 | 67676 | ||
Nemesis against France [190 words] | Ianus | Nov 29, 2006 18:40 | 67676 | ||
No more paranoia please [342 words] | Olivier | Jan 28, 2007 03:36 | 67676 | ||
No more paranoia please... Just sober Islamic common sense instead ... [1209 words] | Ianus | Jan 30, 2007 16:16 | 67676 | ||
Is it Paranoia or Blissful Ignorance? [26 words] | Kevin | Feb 23, 2007 12:05 | 67676 | ||
Somber Realization [64 words] | Kevin | Feb 23, 2007 12:11 | 67676 | ||
submission by any name [132 words] | larryB | Jan 16, 2015 16:59 | 67676 | ||
| Abolishing the ZUS unfounded myth [177 words] | Harrak | Nov 28, 2006 23:44 | 67665 | ||
| It's true, I've seen it. [62 words] | Evan Johnson | Nov 28, 2006 23:27 | 67662 | ||
| highly interesting! same case in India !! [211 words] | anti-jihadi | Nov 27, 2006 09:57 | 67460 | ||
irony [163 words] | paulmurphy | Nov 27, 2006 18:38 | 67460 | ||
Change the subject again [233 words] | Greg | Nov 28, 2006 18:02 | 67460 | ||
You are right [25 words] | Terry | Apr 14, 2007 19:05 | 67460 | ||
| The fruits of the Euro-Arab Dialogue [80 words] | Earl | Nov 27, 2006 06:52 | 67454 | ||
| Actually, it's 752 ZUS zones, not 751 [38 words] w/response from Daniel Pipes | Mark James | Nov 26, 2006 20:24 | 67426 | ||
| Wrong [70 words] | Tester | Nov 26, 2006 15:16 | 67409 | ||
Wrong Country [39 words] | Right of Center Filipino | Nov 27, 2006 01:20 | 67409 | ||
He is referring to France. Not the wrong country. [98 words] | Dom | Nov 28, 2006 17:54 | 67409 | ||
| policing or economic development? [214 words] | clazy | Nov 26, 2006 12:26 | 67399 | ||
| ZUS and the French [270 words] | Howard Lucas | Nov 26, 2006 08:56 | 67391 | ||
| Shari'a Law for Europe [206 words] | Jay Van Camp | Nov 26, 2006 00:48 | 67366 | ||
| World war 3 on the way [169 words] | Michal Ravdin | Nov 25, 2006 13:13 | 67316 | ||
World War III Michael Ravdin [52 words] | TLS | Nov 25, 2006 21:32 | 67316 | ||
Right on !!! [147 words] | dfwhite | Nov 26, 2006 15:40 | 67316 | ||
Without a fight Europe has become isl;amic, the cowards. Thank you Blair and Balkenende [215 words] | Jaan Krats | Oct 30, 2009 20:40 | 67316 | ||
| The cost-benefit analysis [40 words] | Octavio | Nov 25, 2006 06:43 | 67272 | ||
| In reference to the zones of Paris. [39 words] | TLS | Nov 25, 2006 01:18 | 67254 | ||
Barbarians at the Gates of Paris? [32 words] | Moshe | Nov 25, 2006 15:13 | 67254 | ||
| mischaracterization [71 words] | Adam Stanhope | Nov 25, 2006 00:34 | 67250 | ||
| 2 | misinformation and nonsense [316 words] | paul murphy | Nov 25, 2006 07:51 | 67250 | |
| 2 | wake up [223 words] | jo m | Nov 25, 2006 11:14 | 67250 | |
denial [388 words] | daniel | Nov 25, 2006 11:21 | 67250 | ||
Heads in the Sands of Paris? [274 words] | J.S. | Nov 26, 2006 13:05 | 67250 | ||
at your peril [57 words] | terry | Apr 14, 2007 19:18 | 67250 | ||
| not quite as portrayed [510 words] | paul murphy | Nov 24, 2006 18:22 | 67223 | ||
No excuse [154 words] | Octavio | Nov 25, 2006 13:03 | 67223 | ||
| No-Go Zones - coming soon to North America? [41 words] | Susan Freis Falknor | Nov 24, 2006 17:47 | 67220 | ||
NIMBY ! [145 words] | dfwhite19438 | Mar 15, 2008 02:18 | 67220 | ||
| Outrageous [133 words] | dfwhite | Nov 24, 2006 16:41 | 67211 | ||
| dar-al-islam [23 words] | william papke | Nov 24, 2006 16:39 | 67210 | ||
Let me answer [49 words] | Otcavio | Nov 24, 2006 19:02 | 67210 | ||
Little Maghreb [49 words] | Octavio | Nov 24, 2006 19:53 | 67210 | ||
Surrender....Again [40 words] | Jim McMullen | Nov 24, 2006 21:37 | 67210 | ||
the greatest italian writer: Oriana Fallaci [3 words] | pier | Nov 25, 2006 09:54 | 67210 | ||
| The Muj [38 words] | Heavy Jack | Nov 24, 2006 16:21 | 67207 | ||
The Muj [33 words] | Ianus | Nov 25, 2006 11:52 | 67207 | ||
| Bye Bye France [18 words] | Alyn Starkman | Nov 24, 2006 16:06 | 67204 | ||
| 1 | Allowing One Group to Create Laws While Ignoring All Others [853 words] | S Ralston | Nov 24, 2006 16:06 | 67203 | |
| Daniel Pipes for President! [21 words] | Vladimir Jabotinsky | Nov 24, 2006 14:05 | 67192 | ||
| Probably happening elsewhere...just less "official"... [218 words] | J.S. | Nov 24, 2006 12:30 | 67186 | ||
That's Europe, for you [49 words] | Octavio | Nov 24, 2006 18:58 | 67186 | ||
J.S. [164 words] | Octavio | Nov 25, 2006 04:23 | 67186 | ||
fabrications [81 words] | richard lionheart | Nov 25, 2006 04:34 | 67186 | ||
Richard, Richard [52 words] | Octavio | Nov 25, 2006 19:44 | 67186 | ||
What?? [346 words] | J.S. | Nov 25, 2006 19:56 | 67186 | ||
Moslem intrigues in Sweden [343 words] | Ianus | Nov 27, 2006 15:09 | 67186 | ||
Not fabrications - car torchings [111 words] | studentpat | Nov 28, 2006 15:39 | 67186 | ||
Ianus... [246 words] | J.S. | Nov 28, 2006 18:15 | 67186 | ||
| 1 | French Moslem army [150 words] | Ianus | Nov 29, 2006 10:42 | 67186 | |
Kant for Moslems [557 words] | Ianus | Nov 29, 2006 18:02 | 67186 | ||
I would just like to say, I agree with your scenario, Ianus... [152 words] | J.S. | Nov 29, 2006 18:56 | 67186 | ||
Yesterday Algeria , tomorrow France ? [86 words] | Ianus | Nov 30, 2006 18:28 | 67186 | ||
Indeed, chaos awaits... [599 words] | J.S. | Nov 30, 2006 20:59 | 67186 | ||
Logic of chaos [1232 words] | Ianus | Dec 1, 2006 19:07 | 67186 | ||
Nice Commentary [50 words] | Jeff | Dec 2, 2006 11:16 | 67186 | ||
Hagia Sophia and the mosques [185 words] | Ianus | Dec 3, 2006 12:03 | 67186 | ||
For your edification [381 words] | jeff | Dec 3, 2006 23:23 | 67186 | ||
| France [56 words] | Octavio Johanson | Nov 24, 2006 12:28 | 67185 | ||
| Republican's Next Big Issue: De-Nuclearize France [126 words] | Joe | Nov 24, 2006 12:07 | 67183 | ||
Victory by womb [39 words] | Jesper | Jan 15, 2015 17:31 | 67183 | ||
| American ZUS's [126 words] | Dave Petteys | Nov 24, 2006 12:01 | 67181 | ||
| La mort de France [16 words] | Phillip | Nov 24, 2006 11:53 | 67179 | ||
| ZUS [37 words] | ms | Nov 24, 2006 11:26 | 67173 | ||
| Why are they called no-go zones? [56 words] | Tom F. | Nov 24, 2006 11:22 | 67172 | ||
| Urban Xray [19 words] | LDC | Nov 24, 2006 11:17 | 67169 | ||
| The fruits of political correctness [277 words] | f.sha | Nov 24, 2006 10:39 | 67164 | ||
diversity [79 words] | thewestiscomplacent | Dec 19, 2006 01:24 | 67164 | ||
| I thought the French had more sense [47 words] | Herb Samenfeld | Nov 24, 2006 10:38 | 67162 | ||
I thought the French had more sense [103 words] | Ianus | Nov 25, 2006 12:43 | 67162 | ||
Why did french play dominant role in the enlightenment? [6 words] | aa | Mar 7, 2007 04:16 | 67162 | ||
Why did french play dominant role in the enlightenment? [39 words] | Ianus | Mar 7, 2007 17:30 | 67162 | ||
| 1 | MUSLIM TAKEOVER [81 words] | CHARLIE BAXTER | May 27, 2009 14:23 | 67162 | |
Muslim takeover [174 words] | Ianus | May 28, 2009 05:38 | 67162 | ||
| Deportation [24 words] | Peter | Nov 24, 2006 09:39 | 67157 | ||
| a caveat on French ZUSs [433 words] | daniel | Nov 24, 2006 04:20 | 67140 | ||
| And that is only the top of the iceberg [61 words] | Alain Jean-Mairet | Nov 24, 2006 01:49 | 67134 | ||
| The not so antiseptic acronym for Dar al-Islam zones would be DAI zones [17 words] | Mark James | Nov 24, 2006 00:59 | 67128 |