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semi-autonomous sectors

Reader comment on item: Does Europe Have No-go Zones?

Submitted by Brigitte (Germany), Jan 28, 2015 at 04:37

A Guardian article by Tim Dowling brought me to this blog. In Germany and the rest of Europe, Fox news was widely ridiculed for their interview with this so called 'expert'. It is quite shocking that this kind of sensationalist journalism has such a big platform in America. I find it hard to believe this man possesses any 'considerable investigative skills'.

Having actually myself lived in Berlin, Antwerp and London in districts with strong muslim communities, I find that your blog post, despite correcting an earlier assumption, still paints a picture of deeply divided city landscapes which does not resonate with reality. Instead these areas are still very mixed indeed. Often being not very desirable places to live in to start with, they are obviously mainly inhabited by a part of the population that has a low income, such as students as myself, and obviously for that reason the percentage of immigrants here is much higher. Local shops cater to local needs, -so of course you will find a travel agency geared up towards muslims. I do not understand why this should illustrate any point.

What should actually not be forgotten (as this photo is from Berlin) is that Germany actually invited turkish labourers in the 60s, here the wikipedia entry:

"Large-scale migration of Turkish citizens to West Germany developed during the Wirtschaftswunder("economic miracle") of the 1960s and 1970s. West Germany suffered an acute labour shortage because of the economic boom, in 1961, the Bundesrepublik and officials at the Turkish Republic negotiated a trade of labour. Turkish workers were invited to move to Germany to fill in this void, particularly to work in the factories to do simple repetitive tasks."

So, what I am getting at with this:

Is it not normal for immigrants of any nationality to bring with them part of their local culture? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonia_Tovar

You mention that "Alcohol and pork are effectively banned in these districts, polygamy and burqas commonplace, police enter only warily and in force, and Muslims get away with offenses illegal for the rest of population."

This does not apply in the places I have lived in. It is simply not true.

The sex exploitation scandal you mention sounds horrific, but there also plenty of cover-up examples in catholic communities (often instigated by members of the catholic church in the past). To me it seems a dark aspect of human nature/ problems that can develop in any tight knit (religious or non-religious) community. I find it slighlty inappropiate to bring this into the muslim 'semi autonomous sectors' argument.

From my own experience on a personal level there are also hugely enriching aspects of a multi cultural society. Having had a muslim neighbour for many years, I think it is important to stress that the majority of muslims in Europe are actually moderat, "normal", harmless citizens.

The issue with radicalisation seems to me incredibly complex and blaming it on certain communities simplifies a deeply complicated issue to no end. I personally think seeing muslim communities as the enemy, stigmatizing them and calling them 'West Europe's most acute problem' actually only makes it worse to be honest. This creates a grossly exaggerated impression of clash of cultures and ignore the reality most people live in (here in West Europe).


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Reader comments (85) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
Jihadi enclaves [7 words]Arthur CohnJan 10, 2016 20:48227564
"Semi-autonomous" is too broad a term [220 words]MalcolmFeb 28, 2015 07:09222001
1No go zones in Germany [295 words]Herbert WilfriedFeb 20, 2015 03:25221451
Every city has no go zones [54 words]WaryFeb 7, 2015 10:45220922
1French "No-go Zohnes = Ghettoes" explicitly implies French President Francois Hollande [453 words]LudvikusFeb 5, 2015 14:28220898
2The reality of Islamic persecution in France [431 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Lee KaplanFeb 4, 2015 09:04220865
Muslim/ Islamic Ethnoburb? [95 words]PezDispenserFeb 4, 2015 06:07220860
Problem? [105 words]AntonFeb 3, 2015 07:29220843
1No Go Zones [370 words]Sigmund DermanJan 30, 2015 10:15220776
1Doublethink: Europe has Multicultural Muslim Immigrants but Palestine has Illegal Settlers [652 words]LudvikJan 30, 2015 08:32220775
1True morality deals with good and evil [459 words]Michael SFeb 3, 2015 09:29220775
1Good vs. Evil: Poland in Relation to Russia & Ukraine [519 words]LudvikusFeb 4, 2015 10:53220775
Folly and Incompetence -- and a big moral zero [608 words]Michael SFeb 10, 2015 11:35220775
1The Killing Grounds [96 words]Tom DundeeAug 22, 2015 14:53220775
semi-autonomous sectors [543 words]BrigitteJan 28, 2015 04:37220734
"No-Go" Zones, then and now [865 words]Michael SFeb 6, 2015 17:25220734
2How About "Islamic Suberbia" [See your 1995 "Muslim France"] [246 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
LudvikusJan 27, 2015 11:57220716
1Birmingham, England vs. Birmington, Alabama [249 words]LudvikusJan 27, 2015 07:23220708
hahahahahaha [67 words]samFeb 3, 2015 20:29220708
Jindal's stumble [32 words]Kelly HaggarJan 26, 2015 17:52220695
Additional Request of Mr. Pipes [14 words]Kelly HaggarJan 27, 2015 09:58220695
A slip [24 words]Julius O'MalleyJan 26, 2015 17:47220694
The barbarians [12 words]Francisco BexarJan 25, 2015 14:21220680
Roman Empire Collapse [25 words]GeorgesJan 27, 2015 09:22220680
Thanks [57 words]Larry HauseJan 29, 2015 10:40220680
Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and lessons therefrom [106 words]MozereFeb 3, 2015 04:42220680
5What ended the Roman civilization and brought about the dark ages? It was Islam! (Gasp!) [833 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 5, 2015 12:24220680
1Turks? What are they good for? Nothing. [209 words]PeterApr 12, 2015 19:32220680
4I agree with you the Turks are good for nothing [271 words]dhimmi no moreApr 14, 2015 07:38220680
lost knowledge about crusades [71 words]someguyMay 11, 2016 13:59220680
1Why did the Spaniards burn books and destroyed native civilizations in the Americas and the rule of Islam? [130 words]dhimmi no moreMay 13, 2016 07:21220680
1Semi-autonomous sectors [159 words]Barry RabJan 25, 2015 09:19220677
2France 1998 [398 words]Peter, ScotlandJan 24, 2015 17:48220669
5"In modern techniques for managing marginalization—for keeping the peace in the face of persistent, and growing, inequality—the United States is a world leader." [250 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
LudvikusJan 24, 2015 12:28220663
1There are obvious differences [143 words]ybrandstetter MDJan 27, 2015 06:25220663
1The Difference Among the "Abrahamic" Religions [898 words]LudvikusFeb 1, 2015 06:36220663
Historical Facts That Need Consideration that were not addressed in your comment. [504 words]TomAug 22, 2015 14:33220663
Cheap Labor Is Expensive [94 words]DaveJan 23, 2015 19:36220634
1Separatist Enclave? [105 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Status CrowJan 23, 2015 12:58220627
3From 751 (in 2006) to 976 (in 2015) "No-Go Zones" ("Zones Urbaines Sensibles") of France [486 words]LudvikusJan 23, 2015 06:24220616
3(Jewish) Ghettos in Europe, Harlem in the c1950's, London's East End, & Five Points, Manhattan [335 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
LudvikusJan 22, 2015 22:00220611
32007 "Why Aren't U.S. Cities Burning?" by Michael B. Katz [296 words]LudvikusJan 24, 2015 09:40220611
4How About Apartheid? [71 words]LudvikusJan 25, 2015 17:04220611
Israel is a part of Europe, or Eurabia [220 words]y Brandstetter MDJan 26, 2015 01:28220611
1Palestinian aren't recent immigrants; they are 19th century colonists and nomads - with the prospect of Palestinian statehood [402 words]LudvikusJan 26, 2015 22:39220611
1Who Said The US Has Not been Singed? [307 words]M. ToveyJan 27, 2015 19:30220611
Tourists spend money when they feel safe [54 words]TouristFeb 7, 2015 10:13220611
Right of Return [45 words]Tom DundeeAug 22, 2015 14:38220611
2Good Article, Awkward Replacement Name [37 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Steve ChambersJan 22, 2015 13:24220604
5Reverse millet system? [269 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
ConormelJan 22, 2015 10:22220599
Islamic 'tolerance' of the kuffar? [104 words]ayatollahowmanyJan 23, 2015 23:29220599
Islamic 'tolerance' of the kuffar? [6 words]ayatollahowmanyJan 23, 2015 23:36220599
2No Millet system [249 words]dhimmi no moreJan 25, 2015 12:18220599
Why is this an excellent point? [16 words]selavyJan 27, 2015 16:20220599
1Not such a new development [220 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
L. RivlinJan 22, 2015 03:39220592
1Now is not time to cede the use of this term - we are not in an acedemic debate [218 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Tom CohoeJan 21, 2015 23:29220584
4Sharia ghettoes [88 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Charles MartelJan 21, 2015 23:19220583
no go zone [33 words]MCJan 21, 2015 22:33220582
Evidence, please [107 words]Randy McDonaldJan 21, 2015 22:21220580
TV [12 words]RDJan 21, 2015 20:21220576
4Sharia Colonies [32 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Mark GJan 21, 2015 18:59220575
The consequence of "political correctness" [13 words]Michael RachkovskyJan 21, 2015 18:46220574
What lies ahead [9 words]Art WrightJan 21, 2015 18:09220572
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" [31 words]Rachmiel Ben ArielJan 21, 2015 15:45220568
1The problem relates to secession [249 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Solo3Jan 21, 2015 12:49220563
1doesn't the correct noun already exist? [7 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
cvtJan 21, 2015 12:03220562
No go zones/historical parallel [60 words]Gregory GargisoJan 21, 2015 10:49220560
You Don't Need to Leave Home.... [37 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Barry BlackJan 21, 2015 09:44220558
Try "Occupation Zones." [7 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
GaryJan 21, 2015 09:20220554
checkpoint sharia [61 words]mythJan 24, 2015 07:05220554
How about Settlements [6 words]EdwardJan 26, 2015 19:42220554
1One editor-in-chief thinks that belief in aliens is equivalent to the "belief" in Islamic terrorism [256 words]GaryJan 27, 2015 00:48220554
Mekkareisen left to right, right to left [45 words]mythJan 21, 2015 09:18220553
1No-go zones [279 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Jean-PaulJan 21, 2015 08:49220552
no-speak zone in the center of brussels [56 words]mythJan 24, 2015 07:00220552
2another example: arab areas of Israel, including Jerusalem [8 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
MarkJan 21, 2015 07:42220551
Mark has never been to places he mentions [40 words]Francisco BexarJan 25, 2015 14:54220551
1Similarities in Israel [112 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Steven ShermanJan 21, 2015 06:04220548
Great self-correction and discussion [137 words]John in Michigan, USAJan 25, 2015 14:33220548
2A Damaging Distinction Without a Difference [117 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
djfJan 21, 2015 06:03220547
An Alternative Term: Tolerated Zones [25 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Vincent HodgsonJan 21, 2015 05:54220546
Rotherham [14 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
KasiaJan 21, 2015 05:04220544
1Ethnic colony [70 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
GranvilleJan 21, 2015 03:14220542
No Go Zones [23 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Robin RosenblattJan 21, 2015 02:41220541
1Government VS citizens [29 words]steven LJan 21, 2015 02:21220540

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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