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"No-Go" Zones, then and now

Reader comment on item: Does Europe Have No-go Zones?
in response to reader comment: semi-autonomous sectors

Submitted by Michael S (United States), Feb 6, 2015 at 17:25

Hi, Brigitte

I am a US citizen, and have lived in the US for some 98.5% of my life, so I do not know the specifics of the situation in Europe. Just about everything you have said, though, would also describe the situation in the US; though we, of course, have a much longer and deeper history of dealing with mass industrial immigration. I am happy that you have not witnessed actual, de jure "no-go" areas in the cities; though they apparently exist there, as they do in the US, de facto.

You did well, to point out that the immigration of (mainly Turkish) Muslims to Germany was the result of German government policy. Behind the official veneer, though, it's clear to me that the real deciders were not the German people, but the German industrialists. This is also true in the US, and it has been the case since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. It's difficult to pinpoint the start of this event, which various authorities have said happened between 1790 and 1840.

The cited graph shows that a radical demographic change happened in the US around the middle of the 19th Century (the 1800s). 1830, 1848 and 1860 were years of social unrest in Europe; and much of that unrest was the result of the changes there brought about by the Industrial Revolution. This was also the beginning of rather large population movements within Europe. During this time, for instance, Jews were starting to strike out from their shtetls, often losing their Jewish identity. German sugar-makers were also finding their way to England, and their children were setting up refineries in Ireland. The rise of a middle class in Britain led to a change of diet, with a greatly enlarged gentry consuming not only copious amounts of sugar in their tea, but also potatoes produced on an industrial scale in Ireland.

I know about the above, because all these events directly impacted my and my wife's family. The reason these internal events in Europe affected an American like me, is that this was a time of massive, manufacturing-enduced, migration across the ocean, mainly by workers from Ireland and Germany. This was followed, in the "Second Industrial Revolution" in the late 1800s, by a wave of immigrants first from Scandanavia and Germany, then from Eastern and Southern Europe.

The disruptions of these migrations to American society were on the same scale as the Muslim immigration you Europeans are now experiencing. By the time the Germans (and Australians also, I might add) began actively encouraging immigration to supply labor for its factories, the US had already become a cosmopolitan society, with Jews, Poles, Irishmen and Italians occupying increasingly important roles in society.

The acme of this change was the election of an Irish Catholic, John F. Kenedy, as President in 1960. This coincided with the beginning of massive social disruption in our society. I believe it was Kennedy's book, "A Nation of Immigrants", which gave statistics about ownership of major enterprises in the US. While non-British immigrants and their descendants constituted a clear majority of white Americans at that time, some 97% of the wealth was still in the hands of "White Anglo-Saxon Protestants" (WASPs). I imagine that in Europe today, non-Muslim Europeans have a similar control over the economy. Also in the US in the late 1960s, Black and Hispanic Americans supplied about twice their proportional number of troops for the military, especially the Army; and an even more disproportionate share of infantrymen. Elite outfits such as the one I was in, meanwhile, were virtually all white.

There has often been a comparison made, between American Black-majority and Hispanic-majority ghettos, on the one hand, and the Muslim "no-go" ghettos of Europe. In terms of demographics, this is a valid comparison, though some Europeans have contended that the situations are dissimilar because ours is a "racial" divide, whereas Europe's division is "religious". What I have said above ought to amply show, however, that we also have had to deal with a massive onslaught of religious aliens: Roman and Orthodox Catholics, Jews and Atheists, who in their day were as starkly different from mainstream Americans as the Muslims are today in Europe.

In conclusion, I would say that the "Muslim Problem" in Europe probably is having an impact on your society of a magnitude similar to what we in the US experienced in the early 1900s. You have your burqa laws, and we had Prohibition; you have scattered acts of terrorism, and we had labor riots. Because of the time lag, we are a bit out-of-sync with each other; but we can certainly relate, to an extent, with each other's experience. What's more, the upheavals happening in both places today are not because of Induxtrial Revolution dislocations, but of Information Refolution ones; so in this respect, we very much are in sync.

In today's ethnic turmoil, as in the previous turmoils of the 1930s and the 1800s, the attention of the masses is with the persons of the immigrants; but the drivers of the troubles are exceedingly wealthy individuals living in islands of wealth, comfort and stability. Some things, it seems, transcend time and geography.


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Reader comments (85) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
Jihadi enclaves [7 words]Arthur CohnJan 10, 2016 20:48227564
"Semi-autonomous" is too broad a term [220 words]MalcolmFeb 28, 2015 07:09222001
1No go zones in Germany [295 words]Herbert WilfriedFeb 20, 2015 03:25221451
Every city has no go zones [54 words]WaryFeb 7, 2015 10:45220922
1French "No-go Zohnes = Ghettoes" explicitly implies French President Francois Hollande [453 words]LudvikusFeb 5, 2015 14:28220898
2The reality of Islamic persecution in France [431 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Lee KaplanFeb 4, 2015 09:04220865
Muslim/ Islamic Ethnoburb? [95 words]PezDispenserFeb 4, 2015 06:07220860
Problem? [105 words]AntonFeb 3, 2015 07:29220843
1No Go Zones [370 words]Sigmund DermanJan 30, 2015 10:15220776
1Doublethink: Europe has Multicultural Muslim Immigrants but Palestine has Illegal Settlers [652 words]LudvikJan 30, 2015 08:32220775
1True morality deals with good and evil [459 words]Michael SFeb 3, 2015 09:29220775
1Good vs. Evil: Poland in Relation to Russia & Ukraine [519 words]LudvikusFeb 4, 2015 10:53220775
Folly and Incompetence -- and a big moral zero [608 words]Michael SFeb 10, 2015 11:35220775
1The Killing Grounds [96 words]Tom DundeeAug 22, 2015 14:53220775
semi-autonomous sectors [543 words]BrigitteJan 28, 2015 04:37220734
"No-Go" Zones, then and now [865 words]Michael SFeb 6, 2015 17:25220734
2How About "Islamic Suberbia" [See your 1995 "Muslim France"] [246 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
LudvikusJan 27, 2015 11:57220716
1Birmingham, England vs. Birmington, Alabama [249 words]LudvikusJan 27, 2015 07:23220708
hahahahahaha [67 words]samFeb 3, 2015 20:29220708
Jindal's stumble [32 words]Kelly HaggarJan 26, 2015 17:52220695
Additional Request of Mr. Pipes [14 words]Kelly HaggarJan 27, 2015 09:58220695
A slip [24 words]Julius O'MalleyJan 26, 2015 17:47220694
The barbarians [12 words]Francisco BexarJan 25, 2015 14:21220680
Roman Empire Collapse [25 words]GeorgesJan 27, 2015 09:22220680
Thanks [57 words]Larry HauseJan 29, 2015 10:40220680
Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and lessons therefrom [106 words]MozereFeb 3, 2015 04:42220680
5What ended the Roman civilization and brought about the dark ages? It was Islam! (Gasp!) [833 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 5, 2015 12:24220680
1Turks? What are they good for? Nothing. [209 words]PeterApr 12, 2015 19:32220680
4I agree with you the Turks are good for nothing [271 words]dhimmi no moreApr 14, 2015 07:38220680
lost knowledge about crusades [71 words]someguyMay 11, 2016 13:59220680
1Why did the Spaniards burn books and destroyed native civilizations in the Americas and the rule of Islam? [130 words]dhimmi no moreMay 13, 2016 07:21220680
1Semi-autonomous sectors [159 words]Barry RabJan 25, 2015 09:19220677
2France 1998 [398 words]Peter, ScotlandJan 24, 2015 17:48220669
5"In modern techniques for managing marginalization—for keeping the peace in the face of persistent, and growing, inequality—the United States is a world leader." [250 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
LudvikusJan 24, 2015 12:28220663
1There are obvious differences [143 words]ybrandstetter MDJan 27, 2015 06:25220663
1The Difference Among the "Abrahamic" Religions [898 words]LudvikusFeb 1, 2015 06:36220663
Historical Facts That Need Consideration that were not addressed in your comment. [504 words]TomAug 22, 2015 14:33220663
Cheap Labor Is Expensive [94 words]DaveJan 23, 2015 19:36220634
1Separatist Enclave? [105 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Status CrowJan 23, 2015 12:58220627
3From 751 (in 2006) to 976 (in 2015) "No-Go Zones" ("Zones Urbaines Sensibles") of France [486 words]LudvikusJan 23, 2015 06:24220616
3(Jewish) Ghettos in Europe, Harlem in the c1950's, London's East End, & Five Points, Manhattan [335 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
LudvikusJan 22, 2015 22:00220611
32007 "Why Aren't U.S. Cities Burning?" by Michael B. Katz [296 words]LudvikusJan 24, 2015 09:40220611
4How About Apartheid? [71 words]LudvikusJan 25, 2015 17:04220611
Israel is a part of Europe, or Eurabia [220 words]y Brandstetter MDJan 26, 2015 01:28220611
1Palestinian aren't recent immigrants; they are 19th century colonists and nomads - with the prospect of Palestinian statehood [402 words]LudvikusJan 26, 2015 22:39220611
1Who Said The US Has Not been Singed? [307 words]M. ToveyJan 27, 2015 19:30220611
Tourists spend money when they feel safe [54 words]TouristFeb 7, 2015 10:13220611
Right of Return [45 words]Tom DundeeAug 22, 2015 14:38220611
2Good Article, Awkward Replacement Name [37 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Steve ChambersJan 22, 2015 13:24220604
5Reverse millet system? [269 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
ConormelJan 22, 2015 10:22220599
Islamic 'tolerance' of the kuffar? [104 words]ayatollahowmanyJan 23, 2015 23:29220599
Islamic 'tolerance' of the kuffar? [6 words]ayatollahowmanyJan 23, 2015 23:36220599
2No Millet system [249 words]dhimmi no moreJan 25, 2015 12:18220599
Why is this an excellent point? [16 words]selavyJan 27, 2015 16:20220599
1Not such a new development [220 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
L. RivlinJan 22, 2015 03:39220592
1Now is not time to cede the use of this term - we are not in an acedemic debate [218 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Tom CohoeJan 21, 2015 23:29220584
4Sharia ghettoes [88 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Charles MartelJan 21, 2015 23:19220583
no go zone [33 words]MCJan 21, 2015 22:33220582
Evidence, please [107 words]Randy McDonaldJan 21, 2015 22:21220580
TV [12 words]RDJan 21, 2015 20:21220576
4Sharia Colonies [32 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Mark GJan 21, 2015 18:59220575
The consequence of "political correctness" [13 words]Michael RachkovskyJan 21, 2015 18:46220574
What lies ahead [9 words]Art WrightJan 21, 2015 18:09220572
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" [31 words]Rachmiel Ben ArielJan 21, 2015 15:45220568
1The problem relates to secession [249 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Solo3Jan 21, 2015 12:49220563
1doesn't the correct noun already exist? [7 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
cvtJan 21, 2015 12:03220562
No go zones/historical parallel [60 words]Gregory GargisoJan 21, 2015 10:49220560
You Don't Need to Leave Home.... [37 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Barry BlackJan 21, 2015 09:44220558
Try "Occupation Zones." [7 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
GaryJan 21, 2015 09:20220554
checkpoint sharia [61 words]mythJan 24, 2015 07:05220554
How about Settlements [6 words]EdwardJan 26, 2015 19:42220554
1One editor-in-chief thinks that belief in aliens is equivalent to the "belief" in Islamic terrorism [256 words]GaryJan 27, 2015 00:48220554
Mekkareisen left to right, right to left [45 words]mythJan 21, 2015 09:18220553
1No-go zones [279 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Jean-PaulJan 21, 2015 08:49220552
no-speak zone in the center of brussels [56 words]mythJan 24, 2015 07:00220552
2another example: arab areas of Israel, including Jerusalem [8 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
MarkJan 21, 2015 07:42220551
Mark has never been to places he mentions [40 words]Francisco BexarJan 25, 2015 14:54220551
1Similarities in Israel [112 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Steven ShermanJan 21, 2015 06:04220548
Great self-correction and discussion [137 words]John in Michigan, USAJan 25, 2015 14:33220548
2A Damaging Distinction Without a Difference [117 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
djfJan 21, 2015 06:03220547
An Alternative Term: Tolerated Zones [25 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Vincent HodgsonJan 21, 2015 05:54220546
Rotherham [14 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
KasiaJan 21, 2015 05:04220544
1Ethnic colony [70 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
GranvilleJan 21, 2015 03:14220542
No Go Zones [23 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Robin RosenblattJan 21, 2015 02:41220541
1Government VS citizens [29 words]steven LJan 21, 2015 02:21220540

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Mark my comment as a response to "No-Go" Zones, then and now by Michael S

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Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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