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There is no compulsion into rationality

Reader comment on item: Turkey, Closest to Leading the Middle East
in response to reader comment: evil turks

Submitted by Ianus (Poland), Feb 3, 2013 at 17:17

havas wrote:

> ı enjoy to read the thoughts of our enemies.<

I wish instead of enjoying them you had understood them. What you Turks are unable to grasp is that beyond two things which your are taught by rote about "the thoughts of our enemies", namely that they come from

a/stupidity-ignorance ("The giaours don't know anything about Turkey"!)

b/malice-mischief ("You're an Armenian, Ianus!";)

There is a third compelling thing never hinted at to or guessed by you , viz.

3/ a valid point "our enemies" make.

But to understand this third thing which is the most important and decisive one you need a mindset and background which your country's poor education system and extremelyy proficient propaganda preclude - abandoning one's wrong opinions in the light of new, verifiable contrary evidence.

I note that you are unable to counter any detailed argument with any rational, verifiable and source-based counterargument and your complaints amount to generelities and whines worth a kindergarten child offended by being told that his granfather's great stories are fairy tales and belong to the litterbin in the common room.

> but ı cant see any intellectuality in your comments. to be an intellectual you have to be objective and able to listen what the other side says to you.. <

On the contrary one shows a higher intellect when one detects and exposes contradictions and inconsistencies , not to say lies, of the other side than when one acceps them uncritically and without protest. My method is not so different from that of Thucydides , the father of critical history. It's not my fault that your stories turn out to be all lies but rather yours. It's sad that your "intelelctuality" doesn't allow you to practise a bit of self-crticism. It would spare you many an embarrassment. But am I so naive as to envisage "Turks and self-criticism" ? Who reads Thucydides in Turkey?

> you call everything about turkey and turk evil. <

Where have I said anything offensive or indecent about Turkish communists ?

> how can any race or any country be totally evil first of all.<

Where can you see a logical impossibility of that? Is there anything positive about barbarity, e.g.. that which Turks, their hordes and jihad have brought to Europe? I see, it was so fine that now you are crazy about re-imposing your Asiatic Ottoman regress upon us.

> although he is against my countries politics, mr pipes is definitely not like you.<

No, his concept and admiration of Kemalism is based more on his own idealism and wishes than on the historical facts surrounding the rise and coming to power of this dubious and murderous doctrine as I have repeatedly tried to point out. To my mind you can't exterminate 2 mln people, deny it, demand and get a cover up for your genocides from a certain "democracy" and then represent it as a "model of modernity and moderation for other Muslims to follow".

> he looks everything from israels point of view but he is not full of hatred. he is logical from his political position.<

It is none of either your of my business to tell people what they should love or hate. But is is certainly our business to point to certain objective difficulties of loving something which under normal circumstances is worth hating.

> how can ı argue with you? you choose random subjects and try to generalise them all the time.<

First of all, I can tell you that no arguing is possible with people who you know in advance will not change their mind irrespective of what amount of evidence is produced both factual and logical against their point. From my experience with Turks I'd say they don't belong to a culture where changing important opinions according to the weight of rational argument is allowed or possible. It's a matter of principle. So your question "how can ı argue with you? " is a bit misleading. You don't want to argue with me (e.g. about "Hodjali") because you can NEVER EVER admit you are wrong dealing with a despicable giaour like me and no matter what evidence I produce to expose the wrong point you will rather instantly disappear without a word of reply than say honestly e.g. "I am just a Turk. I lied as we all Turks lie to you kafirs" or something to this effect.

> for you a tourist who went to jail in turkey means lots of tourists here go to jail, or a turk making sex with an animal means most turks have animal partners and we have half sheep and half human babies etc. you are like the bad characters in cartoons.<

I cited the facts. The conclusions are yours. Besides, I don't consider these to be my most important posts. The posts exposing your claims and lies about Karabakh or Cyprus or Kemalism are much more important and principal. That you are unable to refute anything only proves the point I wanted to make - one can't argue with people who in principle don't recognize the rules of rational discourse, i.e. the point which turns out to be wrong must be openly rejected by the party that has stuck to it. With you it is the other way arount - you stick to the wrong point and lie even more obstinately than before the debate. And you speak of "intellectuality" ? But maybe you just mean "Turkish intellectualitY" which opens up another long chapter on differences of basic semantics that make any debate with Moslems impossible. One can't have a sensible conversations with people who with the same words one uses mean different or opposite things.

> but more probably ... ı must stop reading you ı think.<

Your Koran tells us in a queer twist "There is no compulsion in religion". I will say more than your Allah "There is no compulsion into rationality".

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".


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Reader comments (74) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
Update? [15 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
David W. LincolnFeb 1, 2013 13:19203031
2Maybe thus ...? [43 words]IanusFeb 2, 2013 04:47203031
ticking all the correct boxes [30 words]MozereFeb 4, 2013 06:23203031
1Shining light [22 words]David W. LincolnFeb 4, 2013 11:08203031
5Troy avenged,Twice [305 words]MozereJan 31, 2013 10:50203000
5Which option do you choose ? [290 words]IanusFeb 1, 2013 14:19203000
4Absurd view of history [127 words]bookwormFeb 2, 2013 03:36203000
2Ianus, long version please! [86 words]bookwormFeb 2, 2013 04:46203000
5Our dear Mozere and Turkish logic [130 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 2, 2013 07:17203000
Byzantine Logics [413 words]MozereFeb 4, 2013 05:38203000
4Option d or the Turkish way [199 words]IanusFeb 4, 2013 15:13203000
5Educating poorly educated Turks one at a time and the Arabs destroyed classical civilizations [1136 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 5, 2013 08:44203000
1Turkish Proteus [327 words]IanusFeb 5, 2013 15:10203000
3Teaching poorly educated Turks and the fate of the library of Alexandria revisited [2335 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 6, 2013 09:21203000
5It seems that our dear Mozere disagrees with Allah as Allah seems to love Constantine [299 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 6, 2013 17:17203000
maybe so mabye not [87 words]brownApr 24, 2013 01:55202869
the problerm is WHO HAS THE TRUTH [83 words]JACQUES HADIDAApr 25, 2013 12:48202869
2The Achilles heel of Turkey,Education. [217 words]MozereJan 23, 2013 05:03202745
4Achilles' heel and Koalemos' head [83 words]IanusJan 26, 2013 06:19202745
2ianus the great [169 words]havasJan 26, 2013 23:47202745
2Education in general in the Middle East [193 words]dhimmi no moreJan 27, 2013 06:48202745
3Love eveil and Turks will love you ! [250 words]IanusJan 29, 2013 01:04202745
4Our dear Havas is saying that there was no genocide because the Armenians went on holidays and never came back! [63 words]dhimmi no moreJan 29, 2013 06:26202745
3Delusions and wishful thinking [135 words]dhimmi no moreJan 29, 2013 09:21202745
Rote Learning [128 words]MozereJan 30, 2013 07:29202745
2intellectual armenians [196 words]havasJan 30, 2013 11:17202745
Education Achilles heel. [167 words]moJan 30, 2013 15:50202745
5Turks and their flawed logic [403 words]dhimmi no moreJan 30, 2013 18:57202745
2The Armenian Genocide and those that deny it! Shame on them [92 words]dhimmi no moreJan 30, 2013 19:03202745
2If you see evil and don't hate it you are part of it. [117 words]IanusJan 30, 2013 19:29202745
4Turkish victimization comedy revisited [762 words]IanusJan 31, 2013 02:07202745
3Love evil and Turks will love you . (the end ) [124 words]IanusFeb 1, 2013 13:31202745
2evil turks [174 words]havasFeb 1, 2013 16:05202745
4Turks don't know what "shame" means [183 words]IanusFeb 1, 2013 18:35202745
2And speaking of evil [128 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 3, 2013 07:38202745
2There is no compulsion into rationality [991 words]IanusFeb 3, 2013 17:17202745
turks [158 words]brownApr 24, 2013 01:34202745
On turks and Minerva [25 words]IanusApr 25, 2013 01:29202745
what is sharia [214 words]havasJan 22, 2013 16:35202725
Turkish success [88 words]Nazim CairoJan 21, 2013 17:30202714
Bad translation ? [43 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
JoséJan 21, 2013 17:05202713
In ref: Shari'a Law [89 words]Mike FranklinJan 21, 2013 14:40202712
2Moderate versus extremist Islam [179 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Doug MayfieldJan 21, 2013 13:08202711
"Turkey, Closest to Leading the Middle East", Article 1-21-13 [57 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
marthafJan 21, 2013 11:54202710
Turkey, Closest to Leading the Middle East [69 words]Ilbert A. PhillipsJan 21, 2013 11:22202709
2Islam is not comparable to comunism and fascism while Kemalism is ! [140 words]IanusJan 26, 2013 14:58202709
1Turkey, Closest to Leading the Middle East [173 words]JudithJan 21, 2013 11:11202708
1Turkey changes [300 words]MikeKuJan 21, 2013 04:48202700
8The more Turkey changes the more it remains the same thing [1531 words]IanusJan 26, 2013 05:23202700
7The Turks and their bloody history [198 words]dhimmi no moreJan 28, 2013 07:33202700
1Just curious [90 words]IanusJan 31, 2013 16:36202700
4Egypt and the dark ages and islam [499 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 1, 2013 07:37202700
2A good old Mahometan tradition [610 words]IanusFeb 4, 2013 16:13202700
It is the Market Economy dear boy [517 words]MozereFeb 5, 2013 04:48202700
6More questions and few answers and the Arab invasion of the Middle East and beyond and the dark ages [1398 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 5, 2013 13:58202700
1A lousy reader [310 words]IanusFeb 7, 2013 10:47202700
1Strange points [1063 words]IanusFeb 7, 2013 12:18202700
3History and its mimesis and the problem of the sources [565 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 8, 2013 18:28202700
3I am the one voice crying in the wilderness. [176 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
monique shanabargerJan 21, 2013 01:25202694
How our U. S. Government views the questions to which you responded [192 words]Fred E. VanosdallJan 21, 2013 00:34202693
2Know Islam [252 words]NuritGJan 20, 2013 22:07202689
In spite of Islam [44 words]Ron ThompsonJan 22, 2013 17:19202689
5Fake claims and stolen symbols of Mahometans [649 words]IanusJan 25, 2013 03:41202689
3A moderate Islam in Turkey? I don't see it [363 words]Ron ThompsonJan 20, 2013 21:52202688
7Ataturk - the ex-jihadist as a new born "secularist" [581 words]IanusJan 25, 2013 01:42202688
6Moderate Mahomet [490 words]IanusJan 25, 2013 04:59202688
4Was Muhammad moderate? The answer is no and this is what the Muslim masorites tell us [335 words]dhimmi no moreJan 26, 2013 18:04202688
1If I were a Moslem... [98 words]IanusJan 27, 2013 15:56202688
3The Islamic historical tradition [353 words]dhimmi no moreJan 29, 2013 08:24202688
2Responses to your interesting Comments [726 words]Ron ThompsonJan 30, 2013 12:32202688
6Turkey, cognitive dissonance and Judas Iscariot's kiss [1772 words]IanusJan 30, 2013 23:45202688
1Excellent [23 words]Tom DundeeJan 20, 2013 20:43202687
10The Turks and their delusions [343 words]dhimmi no moreJan 20, 2013 13:46202685

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