69 million page views

Lahma, Hanpe v Lahm, hanif Oh and Ummi or is it 'Am ha-ares (Hebrew)

Reader comment on item: Dhimmis No More
in response to reader comment: L-H-M, Hanpe, lectionary etc.

Submitted by dhimmi no more (United States), Feb 6, 2018 at 18:33

gato you wrote

>I think that the general meaning of the root L-H-M was "food".

The word food in Syriac is really ܐܝܟܠܐ which is the same as the Arabic word أكل However, if you meant to say meal then I would like to see a reference from a dictionary but I'm aware that al-Mufasereen believed that the word Lahm could very well mean meal/meat but I don't believe it The Arabs in al-Jahiliyya ate tarid (some type of soup) tamr (dates) 'Asl (honey) halib (milk) and on rare occasions meat Their diet seems to have been limited due to the fact that they lived in a very dry and arid part of the Middle East

BTW notice that I use only Syriac and not Hebrew when discussing Quranic Arabic

> In Syriac and Hebrew it came to mean "bread" since Syrians and Hebrews practiced agriculture, why for Arabs who where pastoralists it is the meat which was their staple food, hence the difference.

May be but the Syriac (as well as in Hebrew) word ܠܚܡܐ or Lahma (bread) is the origin of the Arabic لحم or Lahm Notice that in Arabic the Syriac Alep (definite article) becomes Arabic Tah Marbouta or it is omitted because the Arabic word لحم can also be لحمة with a Ta Marbouta

http://www.assyrianlanguages.org/sureth/dosearch.php?searchkey=6753&language=id

Now if you turn to the Peshitta as a guide you will discover that the word Lahma means bread Not meal or food

Here is a link to Dukhrana.com and the meaning of the Syriac word Lahma

http://www.dukhrana.com/lexicon/word.php?adr=2:11175&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=150&source=ubs

The Qur'an speaks about Lahm al-Khanzeer! Could it be that it means the meal of pigs? Well I doubt very much that pigs existed in Mecca Pigs need plenty of food/refuse also plenty of water I can see them surviving in Syria and Mesopotamia but not in al-Hijaz

Certainly this is just as puzzling as the Qur'an telling us about figs and olives!

>Regarding Hanpe, most probably its general meaning in Syriac "a person outside the faith community of either Old Israel(Jews) or "New Israel"(Christians)"

Correct However the Syriac word ܚܢܦܐ or Hanpe (Syriac P becomes Arabic F) means Pagan (non Jewish non Christian) Check this

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%DC%9A%DC%A2%DC%A6%DC%90

>has underwent an alteration of sense and came to mean "a monotheist not originally from established Jewish or Christian communities" or " a person in whose native language no Scripture has yet been revealed"

Or Muhammad heard the word ܚܢܦܐ and uncritically got it in the Qur'an without realizing what it really means

> I think meaning similar to that of "ummi" in Arabic, or "goyim" in Hebrew or "ta ethne" in Greek or "gentiles". Sometimes it is understood as disparaging term, sometimes without any negative connotations. When Qur'an says that God has sent "nabiyyan ummiyan"

The Quranic الرسول النبي الامي or the messenger the prophet al-Ummi

The word al-Ummi puzzled al-Mufasereen they had no clue what the word الامي or al-Ummi really means I agree with Wansbrough that it is from Hebrew 'am ha-ares or gentile

So much for the illiterate/ignorant prophet of Islam

> it probably means not the the prophet himself was ignorant but rather that he was called from outside the Israel either Old or New, from an "ignorant" people lacking scripture in their own language.

May be But also it could be a case similar to the Sira's word Munahemana

>I have heard about what Gerd Puin said, I think he is largely correct although saying that every 5th word is unintelligible maybe is exageration, more likely it is every tenth word :)

Not true. Here is a challenge: Select any verse in the Qur'an and I will show you problems in spelling, and words that have no meaning! Any verse

>By the way, there are not only Syriac, but also Ethiopic loan words in Qur'an - the most famous are burhan in Sura Yusuf(Eth. berhan - light) and muSHaf(a copy of Qur'an)(Eth. meSHaf - books).

The most famous and most celebrated word from Ethiopic is Hawariyoon (al-Talameedh in Arabic) Which is indeed very puzzling because the Islamic literary sources are silent about fundamental facts about Ethiopia in late antiquity and about the famous city of Adulis Which is not unlike a traveler from let us say Arabia coming to the US without mentioning a single word about New York City Puzzling indeed

> Roots who have the same sound but have quite different meanings not only in different semitic languages but in Arabic dialects as well are quite abundant, so that Tabari certainly had not an easy task of sorting them all(especially if he knew no Syriac :) and frequently he could be mistaken.

al-Tabari was not a linguist At times he had no clue and even when he knew that certain words were not Arabic words (eg: Allah, Qur'an, Ahad in Surat al-Ikhlas) he does not tell the reader that these are really non Arabic words but you can read his twists and turns He was an apologist For good reading; Read his tafsir of the word Ahad in Surat al-Ikhlas where he says Ahad Ya'nee Wahid So he is fixing the Hebrew/Syriac word Ahad (one) and Arabizing it as Wahid

>I doubt that Qur'an started as a Christian lectionary it has too little Christian contents and its focus is definitely non-Christian

Far from the truth. Surat al-Qadr cannot be anything but Christmas in the Qur'an

Also check Q5:171 إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَىٰ مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ

Or Truly the anointed (Jesus) 'Isa the son of Mary is the messenger of Allah and HIS WORD (Logos) he deposited it in Mary and a SPIRIT from him

Which means that the Quranic Jesus is a man, the logos and al-roh al-quddus This is what the Trinity is all about!

But Muhammad was a poor theologian then he wrote وَلَا تَقُولُوا ثَلَاثَةٌ Or and don't say three (Trinity) but what Muhammad just described in the verse is the Trinity which makes you wonder that he was either a poor theologian or the verse is describing non Trinitarian Syro-Arabic Christianity in late antiquity

I suspect that the Qur'an was indeed a Christian كتاب وعظ that belonged to a non Trinitarian Syro-Arabic community that lived in al-Sham and Mesopotamia

BTW did you read M Younis' reading of Surat al-'Adiyat? It is a Syriac hymn! And it has no meaning if you read it in Arabic

> although it can be said to be Judeo-Christian, a group largely based on a kind of Judaism but recognizing Jesus as Mesias.

True Or Wansbrough's Sectarian Milieu

>But how could such a group come to existence? Was it a survival from the pre-Nicene Christianity? Or was such a syncretist sect born from the efforts of Justinian to forcibly convert Jews and/or Samaritans? Since, differently from Rabbinic Jews, Muslims have the concept of the Temple and animal sacrifice there could be some Samaritan connection.

This we don't know and this is why the study of the history of Islam is not possible without being able to read literary sources external to the Islamic tradition in their primary languages be it Syriac, Hebrew, Greek,Ethiopic, Persian, Egyptian language, Latin

However, Syriac is on the top of the list

>It is diffilcult to find a context for Qur'an, but one could propose a working hypothesis, that Muhammed's initial community was a Judeo-Christian community, that the community of Quraysh was probably a Monophysite Christian community with many "pagan" accretions and then look if this helps to elucidate Qur'an and put it into a sort of a context.

We can only guess The truth is we don't know very much about the historical Muhammad Not a thing!

>There is video of Dan Gibson, a (non-mainstream) scholar openly proposing the hypothesis of Petra as initial Mekka. I cannot assess how seriously he is but anyway it can be worth watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOxZl60MyqE

I'm aware of him and it is mildly interesting

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Submit a comment on this item

Reader comments (80) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
3Nassim Nicholas Taleb: "Minority Rule" and the process of Islamization of Egypt! [188 words]dhimmi no moreMar 1, 2018 09:18242393
3Why did Muslims attack Persia? [406 words]PrashantFeb 17, 2018 12:44242278
2Attention Prashant: The Arab invasion of Persia and the recent change in the paradigm of "What Really Happened" [724 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 20, 2018 09:08242278
2SUBJ1 [44 words]anonJan 11, 2018 09:05241827
3Paying Palestinians [154 words]Glenda UrmacherJan 9, 2018 21:21241815
Bring Back Imperialism and Colonialism [199 words]DaveDec 26, 2017 21:24241676
Christian population declines [38 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
JesseDec 24, 2017 09:25241657
Dear Dr. Pipes [157 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Debanjan BanerjeeJan 1, 2018 01:18241657
Dear Dr. Pipes [52 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 2, 2018 22:11241657
Dear Dr. Pipes [85 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 2, 2018 22:59241657
2The most absurd claim by our dear Deb and he has a long history of absurd claims Right our dear Deb? [60 words]dhimmi no moreJan 3, 2018 08:06241657
1Our dear Deb and more gems! [74 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2018 08:12241657
Happy new year dear DNM [26 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2018 12:02241657
2Debanjan exposes the mastermind behind ISIS [220 words]JeffJan 7, 2018 20:54241657
Dear Jeff [101 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 15, 2018 08:42241657
2al-Taqiyya Deb's style! [93 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 10:08241657
3Our dear Deb: Mullah كمال الحيدري says that the Qur'an is a corrupted book! What a disaster [146 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 14:24241657
1Sleuth D.B.exposes even more on the hidden hands behind ISIS [307 words]JeffJan 20, 2018 18:42241657
4Dhimmi historians [31 words]SteinDec 21, 2017 22:50241645
Imperial Church [187 words]gato brancoDec 20, 2017 04:12241625
1I disagree with your statement about Spain in 1200 [285 words]gato brancoDec 20, 2017 02:47241623
2Big Mistake By Muslims [72 words]DavidDec 19, 2017 05:00241613
1Outside ME no better [69 words]VijayDec 18, 2017 10:23241594
1Christians and Jews, start saving up for the Jizya! [314 words]Michael SDec 12, 2017 10:47241547
1Comedy time! And how to punish the US for moving the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem! Read and laugh [55 words]dhimmi no moreDec 10, 2017 16:40241523
1The Arabization and Islamization of Egypt [335 words]dhimmi no moreDec 9, 2017 08:47241503
1Were the early 20th century Turks the only nasty Muslims? [97 words]KephaDec 15, 2017 20:07241503
7Entire conflict explained in less than 20 lines [203 words]G MarcusDec 19, 2017 00:57241503
Arabs, Copts and Goths [266 words]gato brancoDec 20, 2017 02:01241503
3Arabian imperialism [86 words]dhimmi no moreDec 21, 2017 07:23241503
3Islam came to the world at the right time (for them) [451 words]PrashantDec 22, 2017 13:16241503
1The 4th option is neither mentioned nor considered [270 words]PrashantDec 25, 2017 03:23241503
1Arabian Monotheism Muhammadan's style And what happens when the barbarian invade the lands of the civilized [986 words]dhimmi no moreDec 26, 2017 16:56241503
1Islamization but no Arabization: Iran and historical discontinuity v historical continuity [567 words]dhimmi no moreDec 27, 2017 09:12241503
2Are some languages superior to others? Greek Egyptian language and Arabic in Egypt post 642CE [597 words]dhimmi no moreDec 28, 2017 08:30241503
SO what about the West [37 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 1, 2018 01:22241503
1Islamic invaders were not imperialists and western imperialists were not religious tyrants. [607 words]PrashantJan 2, 2018 05:56241503
3Our dear Deb and wearing black shoes! What a disaster! [307 words]dhimmi no moreJan 2, 2018 09:47241503
Persians [150 words]gato brancoJan 2, 2018 11:57241503
2A few questions for our dear Deb whose Hindu ancestors were brutalized by the Muslim invaders of India [290 words]dhimmi no moreJan 2, 2018 12:14241503
3Hey our dear Deb: The Qur'an says that Paul is the prophet of Allah! What a disaster! [77 words]dhimmi no moreJan 3, 2018 08:14241503
1Persian and Egyptian languages: Scripts v spoken languages [474 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2018 09:09241503
2Hey our dear Deb I have another question: Is it true that Allah converted to Islam in Q3:18? What a disaster! [107 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2018 12:11241503
Christianity is still a Western imperial legacy [116 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 8, 2018 22:26241503
Once more Persians and Copts [219 words]gato brancoJan 15, 2018 01:57241503
1Egypt and Iran v Arab invasion and Islamization and Arabization [866 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 08:48241503
2Our dear Deb and Arabian imperialism and the Shi'a tell us that the Qur'an is a corrupted book! [438 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 10:01241503
1Addendum: Greek v Egyptian language in late antique Egypt! The demise of Greek and the ascendancy of the "mother tongue"! [336 words]dhimmi no moreJan 18, 2018 10:30241503
Persian writings in Arabic [324 words]gato brancoJan 20, 2018 06:44241503
al-Lugha al-'Amiayya [175 words]gato brancoJan 24, 2018 02:09241503
1al-Lugha al-'Amiyya v the language of Allah in Egypt [337 words]dhimmi no moreJan 24, 2018 11:35241503
1The 'mother tongue" The long version! [692 words]dhimmi no moreJan 25, 2018 08:35241503
1Iran and the "mother tongue"! Persian v Arabic! [1022 words]dhimmi no moreJan 25, 2018 11:27241503
Qur'anic Arabic etc. [615 words]gato brancoJan 26, 2018 01:27241503
1Iran and Egypt, secular culture v Asateer al-Awaleen in religious garb! [634 words]dhimmi no moreJan 27, 2018 10:53241503
1Persian and Egyptian Arabic and the "mother tongue" [1364 words]dhimmi no moreJan 31, 2018 11:50241503
1Addendum The Quranic word al-Ruum is a loan word from Syriac [46 words]dhimmi no moreJan 31, 2018 12:01241503
1sermo plebeius and sermo urbanus Italian v Latin and Egyptian Arabic v Classical Arabic [179 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 1, 2018 08:19241503
Syrianized Arabic, Mekka and Quraysh [483 words]gato brancoFeb 2, 2018 02:23241503
1Footnote: مملكة الانباط or the Nabataean Kingdom and Islam [131 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 2, 2018 09:39241503
1Carl Becker revisited! Language, identity, and historical continuity v discontinuity [1160 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 3, 2018 09:31241503
fuSHa and colloquial [361 words]gato brancoFeb 6, 2018 01:20241503
L-H-M, Hanpe, lectionary etc. [485 words]gato brancoFeb 6, 2018 03:28241503
3Lahma, Hanpe v Lahm, hanif Oh and Ummi or is it 'Am ha-ares (Hebrew) [1321 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 6, 2018 18:33241503
1Language and identity: The sacred v the profane? [660 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 7, 2018 07:48241503
1Footnote: Is the Qur'an a ܩܪܝܢܐ or Qeryana or كتاب وعظ or Kitab Wa'z or Lectionary? It must be! [134 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 7, 2018 12:50241503
Arab vowels, Qeryana, Samaritans etc. [745 words]gato brancoFeb 8, 2018 03:52241503
1Language and identity: Disney and Egyptian Arabic v Modern Classical Arabic! [115 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 8, 2018 10:18241503
Boring for everyone [62 words]gato brancoFeb 9, 2018 02:20241503
Sectarian Milieu [327 words]gato brancoFeb 9, 2018 03:22241503
1Language, Identity, Culture, Vowels and Accent! [736 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 9, 2018 08:13241503
Language, Identity, Culture and Old Civilizations are not conjured away! [1039 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 9, 2018 10:49241503
1Language and identity: The sacred v the profane? And BBC Arabic is a joke! [240 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 10, 2018 07:38241503
John Wansbrough's Sectarian Milieu: The Abbasids and the sacred and the profane [569 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 10, 2018 08:08241503
1So what do we now about the Qur'an as a text? [788 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 10, 2018 11:29241503
Dr Mohmed Rahoma on the language of the Qur'an and that it is not Classical Arabic and the Quranic وشهد شاهد من اهلها [196 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 15, 2018 10:09241503
1Thanks for the article 'Dhimmis No More' [601 words]PrashantDec 8, 2017 11:29241498
There are differences [50 words]bernardDec 18, 2017 19:28241498
2So... [13 words]AlexDec 7, 2017 21:00241490
Let's Win the War of Ideas [212 words]DaveDec 7, 2017 18:12241489

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2024 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)