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Iran and the "mother tongue"! Persian v Arabic!

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in response to reader comment: Persian writings in Arabic

Submitted by dhimmi no more (United States), Jan 25, 2018 at 11:27

Gato you wrote:

>Concerning secular literature there was lots of Arab-language secular literature (both original and translated from Middle Persian or from Sanskrit mostly through Middle Persian) written by Persians from about 750 to about 1050. Arabic language was replaced by Persian as the medium of secular writing in the Eastern Iranian lands starting with the Samanid rule(about 860-1000) while in the Western and Central Iran it did not happen before 1050, the Seljuk takeover. Buwayhid rulers of Persian origin (940-1055) in their courts in Hamadan and Isfahan cultivated literature not in Persian but in Arabic.

Oh sure but again take the case of India and the English language Many Indians write in English just as many Persians used to write in Arabic So what? After all it is the linguistic market place that will decide the winners and the losers and in the case of Iran the Persian language won for many reasons but I still believe that on the top of the list is the fact that the Persian language is the mother tongue

>Certainly Egyptians having lost their uprising against Ummayads, the Persian uprising which brought to power Abbassids was largely successful.

Or Egyptians did not play the game right and it is: "if you cannot beat them then join them" The Persians played it right They not only established what Islam is all about They wrote the books of Islam and told what the grammar of Arabic is all about and the Persian al-Tabari told us what the Qur'an is really saying. They also defeated the Umayyads, created the Abbasids dynasty, built their capital Baghdad (not an Arabic word!) a few miles away from the glorious Ctesiphon This is why they were able to continue to speak their language and maintain their "superior" culture and make fun of the "backward" Arabs!

See? It is all about continuity

>This of course is an important fact and makes difference. The existence of secular poetry in Egyptian language would have helped its survival in Muslim milieu since secular literature can be shared and admired by people of different confessions,

Oh sure No doubt about it but this, as I have proven to you so far, is not the only reason

>but definitely Christian literature written by Egyptian monks hardly had any appeal on Muslims.

You got my point and to paraphrase Islamic literature written by Persian Mullahs in Arabic hardly had any appeal to the Persian masses and this is why the smart Persians the likes of Ferdawsi wrote the Shahnemah in Persian and not Arabic! Now you know the answer

>It is certainly not easy to say whether Ferdowsi was good or bad Muslim but he certainly a genuine and sincere Persian nationalist.

Or he was a realist He knew well that if he wrote it in Arabic it would not have the appeal that it has now

> It is not easy to tell about Avicenna(who wrote 90 percent in Arabic) either. For Shias, he is certainly a good Muslim, for Sunnis hardly so.

This is an old Islamic game. Listen just google: مدلس كذاب ابن اسحاق or Ibn Ishaq (the author of Sirat Rasul Allah) liar and unreliable/plagiarist and also google حفص كذاب مدلس or Hafs (he collected the likes of the Cairo Qur'an) liar and unreliable/plagiarist and you will be surprised So it is either all the books of Islam are unreliable and they were written by liars and plagiarists or I'm missing something here

You can also replace the name with let us say al-Waqidi, al-Bukhari etc.. and you will get the same

>Concerning "Allah" it is definitely a loan word from Syriac "alaahaa" and certainly not a contraction from al-ilah.

Here from their books from one of my old posts:

Again this is what al-Halabi says in his exegesis of the word Allah

أنه ليس بعربي بل هو معرب، وهو سرياني الوضع وأصله: "لاها" فعربته العرب فقالوا: الله، واستدلوا على ذلك بقول الشاعر:
29- كحلفة من أبي رياح * يسمعها لاهه الكبار
فجاء به على الأصل قبل التعريب، ونق ذلك أبو زيد البلخي.

Or it (the word Allah) is not Arabic (word) but it is Arabized from Syriac and its origin is (the Syriac word) Laha (Alaha) and the Arabs arabized it as Allah and as evidence is what the poet Kahlafa men Abi al-Ryah he heard it as Laha al-kubar and he came with it before it was Arabized as per Abu Zaid al-Balkhi"

And here is the vocalized Alaha in Syriac


>Concerning the Egyptian language the mainstream scholarship uses the term "Coptic" for the latest stage of the Egyptian language after the introduction of Christianity,

It is so wrong. You will never find the word Qibt or Copt and Aqbat (plural of Copt) and Bilad al-Qibt (the country of the Copts or Egypt) before the Arab invasion of Egypt is 642CE The Qur'an uses only the Semitic form M-S-R for Egypt so we have the Quranic Masri (Egyptian) and Masr (compare with Syriac ܡܨܪܝܢ and Hebrew Misrayim (Tiberian)

So what did the Egyptian people call their Egyptian language and script between the 2nd and 7th century? Any guesses? Hint: They did not call it Coptic language (sic) for sure

So much for modern scholarship and intellectual laziness

>in order to better distinguish it from earlier stages of Egyptian, Middle Egyptian, Demotic etc. As for script it is not especially "Coptic" bu rather simply the uncial Greek alphabet with some 6-7 additional letters from Demotic. And of course Christian Egyptians has lots of Greek loan words,

So what if the Egyptian language written in the so called Coptic script has many loan words from Greek? And also the Persian language has many loan words from Arabic and Arabic, even Quranic Arabic, has many loan words from Persian (eg: Istabraq it is the green cloth that Muslim men will wear in Allah's heaven) but so what?

I suspect that the spoken Egyptian language would have been more pristine when compared with the written texts and the same applies to the Persian language

> I have seen some texts.

You have some texts of what?


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Reader comments (80) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
2Nassim Nicholas Taleb: "Minority Rule" and the process of Islamization of Egypt! [188 words]dhimmi no moreMar 1, 2018 09:18242393
2Why did Muslims attack Persia? [406 words]PrashantFeb 17, 2018 12:44242278
2Attention Prashant: The Arab invasion of Persia and the recent change in the paradigm of "What Really Happened" [724 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 20, 2018 09:08242278
2SUBJ1 [44 words]anonJan 11, 2018 09:05241827
3Paying Palestinians [154 words]Glenda UrmacherJan 9, 2018 21:21241815
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Christian population declines [38 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
JesseDec 24, 2017 09:25241657
Dear Dr. Pipes [157 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Debanjan BanerjeeJan 1, 2018 01:18241657
Dear Dr. Pipes [52 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 2, 2018 22:11241657
Dear Dr. Pipes [85 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 2, 2018 22:59241657
2The most absurd claim by our dear Deb and he has a long history of absurd claims Right our dear Deb? [60 words]dhimmi no moreJan 3, 2018 08:06241657
1Our dear Deb and more gems! [74 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2018 08:12241657
Happy new year dear DNM [26 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 7, 2018 12:02241657
2Debanjan exposes the mastermind behind ISIS [220 words]JeffJan 7, 2018 20:54241657
Dear Jeff [101 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 15, 2018 08:42241657
2al-Taqiyya Deb's style! [93 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 10:08241657
3Our dear Deb: Mullah كمال الحيدري says that the Qur'an is a corrupted book! What a disaster [146 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 14:24241657
1Sleuth D.B.exposes even more on the hidden hands behind ISIS [307 words]JeffJan 20, 2018 18:42241657
4Dhimmi historians [31 words]SteinDec 21, 2017 22:50241645
Imperial Church [187 words]gato brancoDec 20, 2017 04:12241625
1I disagree with your statement about Spain in 1200 [285 words]gato brancoDec 20, 2017 02:47241623
2Big Mistake By Muslims [72 words]DavidDec 19, 2017 05:00241613
1Outside ME no better [69 words]VijayDec 18, 2017 10:23241594
1Christians and Jews, start saving up for the Jizya! [314 words]Michael SDec 12, 2017 10:47241547
1Comedy time! And how to punish the US for moving the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem! Read and laugh [55 words]dhimmi no moreDec 10, 2017 16:40241523
1The Arabization and Islamization of Egypt [335 words]dhimmi no moreDec 9, 2017 08:47241503
1Were the early 20th century Turks the only nasty Muslims? [97 words]KephaDec 15, 2017 20:07241503
7Entire conflict explained in less than 20 lines [203 words]G MarcusDec 19, 2017 00:57241503
Arabs, Copts and Goths [266 words]gato brancoDec 20, 2017 02:01241503
3Arabian imperialism [86 words]dhimmi no moreDec 21, 2017 07:23241503
3Islam came to the world at the right time (for them) [451 words]PrashantDec 22, 2017 13:16241503
1The 4th option is neither mentioned nor considered [270 words]PrashantDec 25, 2017 03:23241503
1Arabian Monotheism Muhammadan's style And what happens when the barbarian invade the lands of the civilized [986 words]dhimmi no moreDec 26, 2017 16:56241503
1Islamization but no Arabization: Iran and historical discontinuity v historical continuity [567 words]dhimmi no moreDec 27, 2017 09:12241503
2Are some languages superior to others? Greek Egyptian language and Arabic in Egypt post 642CE [597 words]dhimmi no moreDec 28, 2017 08:30241503
SO what about the West [37 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 1, 2018 01:22241503
1Islamic invaders were not imperialists and western imperialists were not religious tyrants. [607 words]PrashantJan 2, 2018 05:56241503
3Our dear Deb and wearing black shoes! What a disaster! [307 words]dhimmi no moreJan 2, 2018 09:47241503
Persians [150 words]gato brancoJan 2, 2018 11:57241503
2A few questions for our dear Deb whose Hindu ancestors were brutalized by the Muslim invaders of India [290 words]dhimmi no moreJan 2, 2018 12:14241503
3Hey our dear Deb: The Qur'an says that Paul is the prophet of Allah! What a disaster! [77 words]dhimmi no moreJan 3, 2018 08:14241503
1Persian and Egyptian languages: Scripts v spoken languages [474 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2018 09:09241503
2Hey our dear Deb I have another question: Is it true that Allah converted to Islam in Q3:18? What a disaster! [107 words]dhimmi no moreJan 7, 2018 12:11241503
Christianity is still a Western imperial legacy [116 words]Debanjan BanerjeeJan 8, 2018 22:26241503
Once more Persians and Copts [219 words]gato brancoJan 15, 2018 01:57241503
1Egypt and Iran v Arab invasion and Islamization and Arabization [866 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 08:48241503
2Our dear Deb and Arabian imperialism and the Shi'a tell us that the Qur'an is a corrupted book! [438 words]dhimmi no moreJan 15, 2018 10:01241503
1Addendum: Greek v Egyptian language in late antique Egypt! The demise of Greek and the ascendancy of the "mother tongue"! [336 words]dhimmi no moreJan 18, 2018 10:30241503
Persian writings in Arabic [324 words]gato brancoJan 20, 2018 06:44241503
al-Lugha al-'Amiayya [175 words]gato brancoJan 24, 2018 02:09241503
1al-Lugha al-'Amiyya v the language of Allah in Egypt [337 words]dhimmi no moreJan 24, 2018 11:35241503
1The 'mother tongue" The long version! [692 words]dhimmi no moreJan 25, 2018 08:35241503
1Iran and the "mother tongue"! Persian v Arabic! [1022 words]dhimmi no moreJan 25, 2018 11:27241503
Qur'anic Arabic etc. [615 words]gato brancoJan 26, 2018 01:27241503
1Iran and Egypt, secular culture v Asateer al-Awaleen in religious garb! [634 words]dhimmi no moreJan 27, 2018 10:53241503
1Persian and Egyptian Arabic and the "mother tongue" [1364 words]dhimmi no moreJan 31, 2018 11:50241503
1Addendum The Quranic word al-Ruum is a loan word from Syriac [46 words]dhimmi no moreJan 31, 2018 12:01241503
1sermo plebeius and sermo urbanus Italian v Latin and Egyptian Arabic v Classical Arabic [179 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 1, 2018 08:19241503
Syrianized Arabic, Mekka and Quraysh [483 words]gato brancoFeb 2, 2018 02:23241503
1Footnote: مملكة الانباط or the Nabataean Kingdom and Islam [131 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 2, 2018 09:39241503
1Carl Becker revisited! Language, identity, and historical continuity v discontinuity [1160 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 3, 2018 09:31241503
fuSHa and colloquial [361 words]gato brancoFeb 6, 2018 01:20241503
L-H-M, Hanpe, lectionary etc. [485 words]gato brancoFeb 6, 2018 03:28241503
2Lahma, Hanpe v Lahm, hanif Oh and Ummi or is it 'Am ha-ares (Hebrew) [1321 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 6, 2018 18:33241503
1Language and identity: The sacred v the profane? [660 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 7, 2018 07:48241503
1Footnote: Is the Qur'an a ܩܪܝܢܐ or Qeryana or كتاب وعظ or Kitab Wa'z or Lectionary? It must be! [134 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 7, 2018 12:50241503
Arab vowels, Qeryana, Samaritans etc. [745 words]gato brancoFeb 8, 2018 03:52241503
1Language and identity: Disney and Egyptian Arabic v Modern Classical Arabic! [115 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 8, 2018 10:18241503
Boring for everyone [62 words]gato brancoFeb 9, 2018 02:20241503
Sectarian Milieu [327 words]gato brancoFeb 9, 2018 03:22241503
1Language, Identity, Culture, Vowels and Accent! [736 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 9, 2018 08:13241503
Language, Identity, Culture and Old Civilizations are not conjured away! [1039 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 9, 2018 10:49241503
1Language and identity: The sacred v the profane? And BBC Arabic is a joke! [240 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 10, 2018 07:38241503
John Wansbrough's Sectarian Milieu: The Abbasids and the sacred and the profane [569 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 10, 2018 08:08241503
1So what do we now about the Qur'an as a text? [788 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 10, 2018 11:29241503
Dr Mohmed Rahoma on the language of the Qur'an and that it is not Classical Arabic and the Quranic وشهد شاهد من اهلها [196 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 15, 2018 10:09241503
1Thanks for the article 'Dhimmis No More' [601 words]PrashantDec 8, 2017 11:29241498
There are differences [50 words]bernardDec 18, 2017 19:28241498
2So... [13 words]AlexDec 7, 2017 21:00241490
Let's Win the War of Ideas [212 words]DaveDec 7, 2017 18:12241489

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