Clueless Western leaders and Ezek 38

Submitted by Michael S. (United States), Sep 19, 2014 at 05:19

Hi, Tovey.

Once again, I have to check what topic we're on. It's "The West Lacks a Plan". Somehow, we have to make sure all these "bunny trails" lead back to that assertion.

You said, along a trail this bunny laid,

"While I may have been schooling myself in the Holy Writ for more than thirty-x years, there is much to demonstrate that a label of accomplished scholar is still one that has not yet been achieved. What is demonstrated, though, is a study that evidenced itself after an initial few years that did not make sense when trying to determine which way the definitions were to be utilized and which 'lexicon/dictionary' with their Hebrew/Greek alliterations' supported the spiritual take on Scripture.

"From that perspective, I do not debate; but I will clear up for myself any perceived challenges to my understandings when and where it seems to be indicated, doing so with the mostly Muslim-world-view arbitrators who think that they can discern Biblical imperatives though an Islamic lens. In doing again, I have had to shed the 'down to earth' mortal perspective and like Isaiah, get a throne room view by the Holy Spirit to find out just why humanity cannot seem to get what the Lord is saying before it is too late."

I don't know how that gets us back from chasing rabbits, but it's interesting reading. It is indeed best to enter into the Throne-room of the Almighty, to get a proper perspective on things. I won't judge what humanity "gets" or "doesn't get". I'm having a heck of a time, trying to figure these things out myself. You continued,

"...There are the pre-captivity prophets; the prophets of the captivity; and then the post exilic sages. Many different scholars have examined these in the context of their times and the implications of the effects... From this, we can see how we differ.

"First,...the references to a preincarnate Messiah are sometime subliminal, other times overt; but always there is the connection from before the cross to after... Each of the prophets described Him [Messiah, by your context] for His foreshadowing of the events to comes...; and of His second advent, His return in power beyond any of mankind's expectations as seen in the post-exilic prophesies. Daniel indeed...

"...and that is where a certain expression of the issues of Israel are going to be determined 'in that day', by her returning King, who (Zech 9:9) will not be entering on a donkey; the second time He enters Jerusalem it will be triumphantly (Zech 14:3-4, 9)."

Forgive my editing.

I seem to agree with "many different scholars", in examining the prophets (plus Daniel, whom the Jews don't consider a prophet), in "the context of their times and the implications of the effects". That's the most straitforward approach, and the one which leads to the least quarreling. As to the "preincarnate Messiah", I don't believe anything I have seen written about such a person. Jesus himself does not always talk literally; he himself said he usually speaks in allegory. Concerning the scriptures you cite,

Zech. 9
[9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

I will only note that Hebrew does not have "capital letters". The word "King" could just as well be rendered as "king". The Jews certainly do not take this as referring to Jesus entering Jerusalem, nor even necessarily as pertaining to a unique end-times "Messiah" (note the caps); and they certainly do not take it as implying that Messiah and God are somehow one and the same.

Zech 14
[3] Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
[4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south....

Note the "all caps" of "the LORD". When it is presented that way in the KJV, it ALWAYS is a transliteration of the Jewish "Adonai", SPECIFICALLY referring to יהןה, as it appears in the manuscript. This is "YHVH", or "Jehovah", the name of the God of All. It does not refer to Messiah; nor can we expect to literally see "feet" cleaving the Mount of Olives.

Jesus' return is described like this:

Acts 1:
[6] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
[7] And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
[8] But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

When Jesus went up, the disciples were talking with him, man to man. In his gospel, Luke says,

Luke 24
[8] And they remembered his words,
[9] And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest...
[36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
[37] But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
[38] And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
[40] And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
[41] And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
[42] And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
[43] And he took it, and did eat before them...
[50] And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
[51] And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
[52] And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
[53] And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Jesus left the disciples as a very human sort of fellow (except for his sudden appearance and disappearance), eating and drinking with them. I don't expect him to be cleaving mountains upon his return. I don't know what his return will be like; though I do know that immediately PRECEDING that return, it will be something like hell on earth.

Does this bring us back to the fact that the West has no plan? The scriptures do tell us that the nations will be confused in those days:

Zech. 14
[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

During the earlier Turkish invasion of Israel, the leaders of the US and NATO (the "merchants of Tarshish") will also be dumbfounded:

Ezek. 38:
[13] Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

That's really ominous to me; because the Western leaders of today, including our own President Obama, seem so well described in their cluelessness. Will that attack happen under Obama's watch? It could...

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