69 million page views

reply to Pierre

Reader comment on item: Muslims in the West: Can Conflict Be Averted?
in response to reader comment: Please review the article 361 on islamrevolution.org

Submitted by salina (Pakistan), Feb 28, 2009 at 01:45

Pierre wrote :-

Conflicting reports on (9:128-129):

Comment: According to the above the "two witnesses rule" to retain a verse is broken.

Comment: Why Would Ubayy Ibn Ka'ab dictate from his own Quran and claim at the end of sura 9 that two additional verses had to be written! If the prophet had recited them he would have put them in writing directly and it would have already been in his Quran. The above tradition doesn't make any sense.

Comment: The account differs slightly from the previous one.

Comment: From the above, in addition to Khuzaima, Umar also knew of 9:128-129.

Comment: Abu Bakr was the fist Khalifa after Muhammad. Uthman was to become the next one.

The above tradition relates that Ali Ibn Abu Talib, the prophet Muhammad's cousin believed something has been added to Quran.

Reference: All the above traditions were found in an enlightening article on http://www.quran.org/9128.htm, article published by A.M., and which provides a detailed bibliography.

Conclusion: If we are to grant any credit to the above traditions, 9:128-129 are doubtful because the rule of two witnesses bringing two written verses was broken. Except for Kuzaimah, and maybe Umar, no one else in the Islamic community seemed to know about verses 9:128-129. It is incredible that no one, at any point, had ever put them down in writing, including Umar! Why? There is no strong unity between the above traditions. They sometimes contradict each other and/or sometimes do not make sense. I believe there are entirely made up, we will see in section 1.2.3 and the general conclusion why.

Reply :- did u forget that there were thousand of Muslim who knew quran verse to verse and what about Usman (r.a.) made copies of the Qur'an from the original manuscript. These ppl would know if any verse were added and not a single authentic source claim that it was . Ali ( R.A.) , Usman ( R.A.) , Omar (R.A.) all Knew quran verbally also and verse 9 : 128- 129 was also know to them by Prophet ( Muhammad peace be upon him )

Second : Hadiths may be false . Nobody claim that hadiths are 100 % pure word of Holy Prophet peace be upon him . However quran can never be false . By following wrong hadith u claim quran is false ??? by following a man who committed rape and assaulted ppl and was a non lair u claim that there are 2 false verses added in quran ??

the fundamental point: Even if there IS a "19" pattern in the Quran, and under this "19" pattern "Rashad Khalifa" COULD be the name of a "messenger," how would this prove the "messenger" is "Rashad Khalifa" and NOT SOMEONE ELSE with a name WITH THE SAME NUMEROLOGICAL VALUES?

Doesn't the resort to numerology merely conceal the fact that Rashad Khalifa's claim of "messengership" MUST depend on EXTRA-QURANIC TESTIMONY, i.e. ahadith?

Logically, how can supporters of Rashad Khalifa criticize Abu-Hurayra, when they, themselves rely upon numerological ahadith and personal testimony to establish that Rashad Khalifa was allegedly "Messenger of the Covenant"?

The complete Qur'an was revealed over a period of 22½ years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur'an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur'an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit.

Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur'an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur'an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice.

It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur'an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions

Muhammad: unlettered and uneducated

U wrote :- Crucial Question: If Muhammad was illiterate before this (Quran), what about after this (Quran)? Because of the wording of the original Arabic verse, it is clearly implied that Muhammad became literate after receiving the revelation.

Reply: - This is laughable of course Muhammad peace was educated by God through the teachings of Quran .

And thou was not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted."[Al-Qur'an 29:48]

Allah (swt) knew that many would doubt the authenticity of the Qur'an and would ascribe it to Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). Therefore Allah in His Divine Wisdom chose the last and final Messenger to be an 'Ummi', i.e. unlettered, so that the talkers of vanity would not then have the slightest justification to doubt the Prophet. The accusation of his enemies that he had copied the Qur'an from other sources and rehashed it all in a beautiful language might have carried some weight, but even this flimsy pretence has been deprived to the unbeliever and the cynic.

Now if suddenly holy Prophet peace be upon him learn to write then why didn't he wrote any documents in his life ???? he didn't wrote the letters which he send to various kings after conquering Makkah . Neither did he wrote the agreement which took place with Makkah ppl at Hudabia . So What is your claim ?? what is your proof that Muhammad peace be upon him knew to write ??? God clearly say that before quran Muhammad peace be upon him didn't have the knowledge which with quran he was able to give it to ppl around the world .No where does it say that he started writing ..

U wrote : From the first Quranic revelation (96:1) and context of 29:48, it is very clear that Muhammad was illiterate, still he was ordered to "read":

Reply :- this is even more laughable . When does read means write ????? Read simple me say what I am saying or did Angel Gabriel brought a written book from God and was pointing to the lines and was asking Muhammad peace be upon him to read from the book ???

The fact that Muhammad could neither read nor write (Q.29:48) is well known and uncontested by even his non-Muslim contemporaries and present day historians. He had no schooling or teacher of any kind. He had never been known to compose oral poetry or prose. The Qur'an, with its all-embracing laws and freedom from all inconsistencies, has its greatness acknowledged even by non-Muslim scholars [47]. Its contents treat social, economic, political and religious legislation, history, views of the universe, living things, thought, human transactions, war, peace, marriage, worship, business, and everything relating to life - with no contradicting principles. The Qur'an has never been edited or revised as it was never in need of any revision or correction. How were such vast subject areas expounded upon with such precision by a 7th century Arab with no formal education or even the ability to read what scant material there may have been in his environment on such topics? Where and when has history ever produced an illiterate and uneducated author of such a scripture?

( my reply or rest will be posted later . )

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Submit a comment on this item

<< Previous Comment      Next Comment >>

Reader comments (111) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
Jamal Idrissi - Arab racist charged for hate crime against blacks in NYC [103 words]ClarisaApr 18, 2022 17:08279890
muslims-in-the-west: A great article and an eye opener [10 words]SHILOH PURIFOYSep 30, 2016 12:50233088
1I am a Assimilated Muslim [426 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Imran1977Sep 8, 2015 16:48224953
Well done Mr. Pipes - but are Iranians equal to Muslim? [140 words]Pirouz KasMay 29, 2015 12:20223590
Removal of two noble verses from sura -9 (128 & 129) [35 words]NihmathullahOct 13, 2014 10:49218677
2Huge underestimate of Islamic population in Europe [49 words]HugoSep 30, 2014 05:50218326
8I do not believe they can assimilate [250 words]chris heathNov 26, 2013 17:41211829
8When inaction rules [42 words]Michael KerjmanJul 12, 2012 22:47197206
2Excellent Commentary [51 words]GWKJan 27, 2013 08:56197206
1Not each muslims are terorists [36 words]Amar AldebJan 19, 2012 13:14192694
ISIS is okay then. [26 words]Hugo LindumOct 1, 2014 18:26192694
12We will never get along [76 words]tikitakiMay 26, 2011 08:38185597
12islamists don't want peace, they want islam to be the one religion and everyone else dead ! [116 words]Phil GreendJun 29, 2009 14:54158210
6Feel tired of Islam [18 words]JeffryAug 3, 2011 23:18158210
1Don't feel tired. Get to action [116 words]PrashantOct 2, 2016 17:42158210
Quite good [37 words]MiriamMar 19, 2008 06:08122997
1incorrect... [94 words]donvanJan 14, 2010 17:51122997
38The death of Rashad Khalifa mathematicaly coded [299 words]PierreMar 31, 2007 19:0088333
1For our dear Pierre and his flawed logic and poor Muslim education [13 words]dhimmi no moreApr 11, 2007 13:5388333
1Praise God! What a sign! [52 words]SaudAug 23, 2007 01:4788333
3I just happened to be reading the comments here and... [53 words]Lover of God AloneAug 23, 2007 12:2688333
Rashad Khalifa [11 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
MazharSep 10, 2007 16:0488333
3Incredible! [24 words]illmanDec 5, 2007 19:4988333
The gematric value of R-K is not correct [19 words]BachirJul 5, 2008 18:1288333
4Yes the gematrical value of Rashad Khalifa is 1230 [374 words]PierreJul 8, 2008 16:1988333
6How would you reply to Rashad Khalifa's number 19 theory, where he removed 2 Noble Verses from the Noble Quran because their references were not multiples of the number 19? [1098 words]salinaSep 17, 2008 03:4788333
39:128-129 Truth versus falsehood [2095 words]PierreSep 20, 2008 12:1688333
The Rashad Khalifa Cult Exposed: [1017 words]salinaSep 21, 2008 14:0488333
29:128-129: the decision on 31/01/2009 on 19.org Forum [130 words]PierreSep 22, 2008 13:0388333
simple answer Pierre [1951 words]SALINASep 23, 2008 03:3088333
3Please review the article 361 on islamrevolution.org [54 words]PierreFeb 27, 2009 12:0888333
reply to Pierre [1248 words]salinaFeb 28, 2009 01:4588333
4I,m speechless,very impressive.God has provided us with great miracles through Mr,Rashad Khalifa pbuh. [51 words]ASAD ANDY MALIKMar 3, 2009 20:1788333
8Sur quoi pointe la date décès de Rashad Khalifa [368 words]AbderrahimApr 24, 2010 21:1688333
4Dear Peirre [70 words]AnoushJun 30, 2010 01:2188333
Even Birth of Dr.Rashad Khalifa is coded with 19 [57 words]ShamMar 8, 2012 15:3588333
2Go brother Pierre! [26 words]OsmanJul 12, 2012 06:0988333
All Praises are to God [114 words]Anna_Aisha (Thailand)Aug 10, 2012 19:2288333
Response to the death of rashad khalifa [44 words]NannyAug 16, 2012 15:1888333
I feel like [11 words]Fahmi N.Apr 1, 2014 20:3588333
nonsense [20 words]faresDec 18, 2014 07:2488333
The Verses with the expression WAHDAHOU [75 words]BouqdibNov 26, 2015 18:3588333
Quran [43 words]jafarlaAug 13, 2016 05:3188333
2Claim of Prophethood by Rashad Khalifa [48 words]RizalJul 1, 2006 13:4348668
For: Rizal: "there is a difference between a messenger and a prophet" [154 words]dhimmi no moreJul 1, 2006 18:2148668
Messenger ,Prophet, and Imam [171 words]HarrakJul 2, 2006 00:4048668
Claim Of Prophethood by Rashad Khalifa [397 words]RizalJul 2, 2006 00:5748668
Is the Qur'an a dictionary? I do not think so! [47 words]dhimmi no moreJul 3, 2006 06:1548668
You missed "my encyclopaedia"? Oh yeah? [567 words]dhimmi no moreJul 3, 2006 07:3248668
Claim Of Prophethood by Rashad Khalifa [117 words]RizalJul 4, 2006 00:3548668
For Rizil: Of Anbia (and not al-nabiyyin) and al-rasul [207 words]dhimmi no moreJul 4, 2006 18:0948668
2Rashad Khalifa is a fraudulent [277 words]ramsesyOct 2, 2006 21:1648668
For ramsesey and his misdirected diatribes! [137 words]dhimmi no moreOct 9, 2006 07:4148668
'Seeking Qur'anic Resonse' [65 words]Hekmatullah NafeJan 12, 2007 18:3248668
1To dhimmi no more :Reveal your identity first in order to have crediblity and relevence [1335 words]ramsesy99Jan 16, 2007 14:5448668
Response to Hekmatullah Nafe [460 words]ramsesy99Jan 16, 2007 15:4748668
For ramsesy99 and more diatribes and no substance! [86 words]dhimmi no moreJan 17, 2007 08:0348668
For ramsesy9 and more diatribes and no substance part trois! [593 words]dhimmi no moreJan 18, 2007 07:4548668
...signs of ingnorance and incompetence, Dhimmi no more! [338 words]ramsesy99Jan 18, 2007 11:4148668
you are incapable of learning Dnimmi no more [277 words]ramsesy99Jan 18, 2007 16:4548668
For Ramsesy and Muslim meltdown part deux! [108 words]dhimmi no moreJan 19, 2007 07:1148668
3Dhimmi status.. [186 words]donvanJan 19, 2007 11:1848668
Keep your grudges for yourself. [5 words]ramsesy99Jan 19, 2007 19:1848668
Wrong information [254 words]ramsesy99Jan 19, 2007 21:1448668
Fior Ramses9 [200 words]dhimmi no moreJan 20, 2007 15:5348668
For ramses99 [350 words]dhimmi no moreJan 20, 2007 16:3648668
so you belong to the ...usurers of the world! [170 words]ramsesy99Jan 21, 2007 11:3448668
For Ramses99 and the history that they do not teach you in Egypt! [751 words]dhimmi no moreJan 21, 2007 16:5548668
Dhimmi no more [174 words]ramsesy99Jan 21, 2007 17:2548668
clairification... [143 words]donvanJan 21, 2007 20:5148668
1For ramsesy and Islamophobia really? [259 words]dhimmi no moreJan 22, 2007 07:2248668
Donvan ... [352 words]ramsesy99Jan 22, 2007 09:0548668
Dhimmi no more the anti-Arab of the new Orientalists! [1907 words]ramsesy99Jan 22, 2007 14:5348668
dhimmi who forgot his ...roots... [432 words]ramsesy99Jan 22, 2007 18:0548668
to muslim egyptian proud of his arabic heritage [41 words]ASJan 23, 2007 01:1548668
to Dhimmi no more on Farsi and Arabic [179 words]ASJan 23, 2007 01:2748668
1Tolerance [165 words]donvanJan 23, 2007 09:4048668
For ramses99 and his diatribes [83 words]dhimmi no moreJan 23, 2007 17:1348668
For ramses99 and justifying the absurd! [153 words]dhimmi no moreJan 23, 2007 17:2748668
For AS and Farsi [101 words]dhimmi no moreJan 23, 2007 18:0148668
For Ramses99 and roots! [110 words]dhimmi no moreJan 24, 2007 07:3448668
... dhimmi and his likes [385 words]ramses99Jan 24, 2007 11:3748668
Islam was the only religion liberated human beings from slavery [287 words]ramsesy99Jan 24, 2007 17:5448668
For Ramses99 and the history that they do not teach you in Egypt part deux! [1538 words]dhimmi no moreJan 26, 2007 19:4948668
For Ramses99 Islam tawheed! [126 words]dhimmi no moreJan 27, 2007 07:4148668
for ramses and Iran and islam [236 words]dhimmi no moreJan 27, 2007 07:5748668
For Ramses99 Arabian imperialism and the history that they do not teach you in Egypt part trios! [50 words]dhimmi no moreJan 27, 2007 08:0248668
to the egyptian mathematician! lol [55 words]ASJan 27, 2007 08:1748668
for ramses Islam and slavery! [103 words]dhimmi no moreJan 27, 2007 16:4648668
1For Ramses and joining a cult! And islamophobia? really? [277 words]dhimmi no moreFeb 7, 2007 07:2748668
response to Dr. Mabrouk A. El-Sharkawy, PhD [9 words]sandraAug 11, 2009 19:3748668
Islamophobia is rampant in the Western countries [5 words]M. A. ElsharkawyJan 3, 2010 12:4248668
A great need to respond... [154 words]donvanJan 13, 2010 11:3248668
1Speak the truth pierre [11 words]Apple PieJun 30, 2010 01:0048668
2Hey dhimmi no more.. Guess what [277 words]Apple PieJun 30, 2010 01:1248668
Christians in Egyot? [118 words]grangerFeb 27, 2012 11:2948668
PRODUCE YOUR PROOF BEFORE ALLEGING [64 words]SunilOct 23, 2012 10:0048668
How True & False is the History [174 words]Herry WiyanaAug 21, 2013 07:5548668
Islam need moderation and change in interpretation of Quran [867 words]R K SharmaFeb 18, 2015 00:0448668
Conspiracy Against the Truth [52 words]Shah DanMar 6, 2017 23:3648668
Rashad Khalifa, Messenger of the Covenant [68 words]Halima DAHMANJun 30, 2022 07:4348668
3ISLAM BOOSTERS [292 words]DONVANMay 2, 2006 15:1244752
what REALLY needs to change [373 words]JimMay 18, 2006 02:3244752
What Really Needs To Change [420 words]RizalJul 2, 2006 01:3944752
1Quranic Grammar [127 words]Truth BringerJul 15, 2007 17:2544752
1When will they ever learn? [200 words]Howard E. CookJan 9, 2010 15:3344752
so true [95 words]donvanJan 12, 2010 15:1744752
Yes, Conflict Can Be Averted [281 words]Allison KhanApr 17, 2006 00:2643356
Good summary [45 words]S CarrollJun 11, 2003 16:589507
wake up [3 words]Alexander (not muslim) StrokoschMay 17, 2003 16:329113
1there is truly deceit in Islam against all who are not Islamic [47 words]dawudJun 4, 2009 14:279113

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2024 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)