Plato, why talk if you don't even know what you're talking about?
Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Mar 8, 2007 at 00:14
Plato, you're sounding more like Michel by the day. You make grand claims, they get shot down, and you then admit to ignorance on the matter. Are you sure you're not Siamese twins, if not the same person? Plato wrote:
"You say indeed mandated (= and authoritative command or order) by their religion to lie. Even what you have quoted from Gazzali does not sound like a mandate but only talks about permissibility (something that is allowed)."
Plato, it is drummed into their heads from birth that they should lie to "infidels" any time it serves a purpose (for Muslims). They are told this by their clerics, by their immams, in their mosques, madrassahs, and homes. Even their Koran and holy scriptures authorize this.
mandate - n. -to authorize or decree (a particular action); a command or authorization to act in a particular way
Muslims have a mandate to lie to everyone else.
"it is a bit like assuming that a Christian will show his other cheek when he is struck on one."
And yet that's what they tend to do, even though that it not a literal command. It refers to not seeking revege, but rather being forgiving. It does not mean to literally stand there and be slapped silly.
"The mystical meaning of the 'meek inheriting the earth' I admit I was not aware. I took it more in its literal sense,"
If you were not aware of the true meaning of the phrase, then you have no business arguing about it. That's the problem with people like you and Michel. You argue without understanding what you're arguing about. This is covered in what? Third grade theology in Christian schools? It's not some "mystical" meaning that only scholars know about. Ask any 5th grader in a Catholic school and he can explain it to you.
"What I am trying to show is that people of all faiths pick and choose what they want to follow of their religion."
Which is of course irrelevant to our discussion. Or to the matter itself. The bottom line is that even the mythological "moderate" Muslims are not working to reform their religion but rather tend to support terrorist activity by donating money to organizations like CAIR and Hamas, and by subverting our culture with their demands and their migratory attacks. All mass migration with the intent of changing the host country is an act of war and genocide.
"I am not a Bible scholar but from what little I know of it I am not aware of any place where Jesus says he has come to supercede the OT instead he is clearly stating that he has not come to destroy the OT laws."
Clearly, far from being a scholar, you are not even familiar with the religion, thus you are not entitled to an opinion on the matter and have no business discussing it. When the Pharisees interrogated Jesus, they asked him what are the two greatest commandments. Jesus replied, saying:
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt.22:37-40
In other words, all other laws derive from and are also subject to these two great commandments. This is a theological discussion far outside the scope of our discussion on the evils of Islam and merely another attempt at evasion. If you want more information on this matter, start here:
"Have I wasted my breath?"
"My disagreement is only on the basis that because Islam is all you claim to be, practically all Muslims are also violent, aggressive and bent on jihad."
Once again you twist my words. Unfortunately for me, you and Michel do not own a newspaper, because I would become rich overnight with all your libelous claims. I am saying that there are virtually no Muslims out there who are reform minded. Those who fight for actual reform of Islam are a microscopic aberration. Those who do not fight for reform are at best willing accomplizes and at worst active terrorists. Either way, they are enemies of freedom. The mass migratory attack is part of their war plan. Only a blind, deaf, and idiotic fool would fail to understand that.
"So even if it is mandated (show me in the Koran or Hadith where it is MANDATED, not just permitted) no parent will tell his children to go out and lie to infidels."
Go to any mosque, madrassah, or Islamic center and you will hear it. I myself have heard it enough times to know that it is rampant in the Muslim community. Back when I had "infiltrated" their community and they thought they'd recruited me, I discovered quite a bit of unpleasant truths about Muslims in America. Now, with what I am about to tell you I cannot divulge much detail for obvious legal reasons. However, you need to listen closely to what I am telling you. All those supposedly "moderate" and "friendly" Muslims I knew exposed their true spirit once I had gained their trust. These were Muslims who ran the local grocery store, the local gas station, and who otherwise seemed like decent American citizens. The veneer of kindness and goodness was stripped away once I got "inside" their community. The amount of hatred buried beneath that veneer of civilized behavior was astounding. That is when the hate speech flowed more freely, that is when they tried to entice me with their daughters, that is when they tried to recruit me (for a great deal of money) to train their children in various aspects of military combat training, with the clear understanding that they would be using those skills in terrorist operations. (Of course, they referred to it as as "freedom fighting" not "terrorism", but it was terrorism none the less). Their plan backfired as it was all reported to the appropriate law enforcement authorities. But as I said, I have seen the reality of Muslims in America first hand, and what I have seen is not good by any definition.
"Okay I have made a lot of concessions."
You are forced to because you clearly do not know what you are talking about. That's the very problem with these discussions - people not knowing the subject matter.
"But what about you with a whole lot of assumptions about knowing how Muslims think"
You're committed an error of definition there. An assumption is a proposition or supposition that is taken for granted without benefit of proof. That is clearly not what I am doing. Each and every one of my claims and opinions derives entirely from direct observation of reality, study, factual analysis, and historical precendence. I do not even offer claims without first knowing that I can back them up no matter how fierce the opposition. So again you show that you do not understand what we're doing here. You simply want to fight with me because you don't like what I have to say.
"You are seeing 90% of all terrorism being the handiwork of Muslims. You do not see the Muslims, the very large majority, hidden from you who are not terrorists. They are barely visible because they do not speak, demonstrate or go on bombing missions"
First of all, your understanding of the Vedas is about as shaky as your understanding of the Bible. So let's not even go there. There's nothing worse than having to argue with an "internet scholar". Second, the very large majority of Muslims are not hidden from us. We see who they elect when they vote (Hamas), we see what they say in their polls, we see what they rally for and against, and what they fail to rally for and against. We see historical patterns being repeated, with identical signposts popping up along the way. The problem is that you don't dig deep enough, you don't look beneath the surface, you don't see the big picture. And thus, you cannot see the problem clearly.
"You need the right kind of torch to see them as the harmless ropes they"If you truly believe they are "harmless" then you're as clearly delusional as Michel. Once again, look at what they are doing in places like Detroit. You're living in denial of reality.
"What is the proof that Muslims are even more violent than the polls show? I, Noah, have repeatedly stated so."
It's called observing reality, Plato. I don't rely on polls. I have already explained to you that they are of limited value because they can be wildly inaccurate. You're simply afraid to look at the big picture. Cowardice is the single personality flaw that most blinds a person to reality.
"And you find it simple to predict human behaviour. You should be able to put psychologists, sociologists and assorted other ologists out of business."
It's a shame you have so little understanding of reality and so little faith in our ability to perceive truth. We make predictions all the time, based on direct observation of reality, and those predictions prove true. You, on the other hand, like Michel, believe this is some sort of court of law, where we need proof "beyond a reasonable doubt", a phrase which you also misinterpret as meaning "with 100% certainty". That's not how it works. That's not what we're doing.
"That Islam is a threat is a given. How to deal with it is what the debate is about. They way you wish to deal with it you will end up becoming what you want destroyed."Again, completely untrue. This is another example of the Great Lie that Goebbels advocated. Use the same lie and repeat it a thousands times but never argue it or debate it. Never respond to challenges to it. Jst keep lying and people will believe it. Well, those of us who are intelligent will not believe it no matter how many times you repeat it.
"As to Islam committing another mass terror attack (even by a home-grown Islamic unit) resulting in MOABing and neutron bombing of the world of Islam it will be a war crime to end all war crimes. The Nazis perfected that. 'Sanitize' a whole city block or village for an attack by a few individuals."
Another idiotic and false comparison. I'll let the obvious stand on its own.
"We will never know if the good side wins because the victor always gets to write the history."
Another propaganda technique used to obscure the truth. You really do need to find another line of work, Plato. Propaganda is not working for you.
"The Arizona rally is getting to be a cause celebre with you. Because of that rally 1,200,000,000 minus 30 = 1,199,999,970 are the number of terrorist Muslims in the world. Your math prove that?"
Once again, that is not my claim, and I will let the absurdity of your misrepresentation speak for itself. Anyone intelligent enough to read this forum can see how you've twisted that.
"My calculator tells me 1,999,700 were not at the rally. It does not tell me anything further. Perhaps your your special calculator tells you there are 1,999,700 terrorists just waiting to set off suitcase n-bombs?"It tells me that 99.9999% of them did not care enough to attend the rally and to fight for reform of their religion. It tells me that 99.9999% of them did not care enough to try to make their religion look better. It tells me that 99.9999% of them refuse to stand up and claim their religion from the "tiny minority of radicals" who are "hijacking the religion of peace". It tells me that even in America, land of the free and home of the brave, that Muslims here are just as unlikely to rally for reform as they are in their Islamic homelands. And speaking of the land of the brave, it's an insult that Muslims use the excuse of fear when trying to explain why they refsue to speak out.
"Did you see the millions that did not celebrate? "
Did we see the hundreds of millions that celebrated quietly in their homes? Did we see the hundreds of millions who thanked Allah for his atrocity? Did we see the hundreds of millions who helped finance the atrocities and who helped them commit the atrocities by their donations to terrorist organizations and their sympathetic "blind eyes" to things going on in their communties? Did we see the hundreds of millions who refused to immediately (or ever, to this very day) stand up and denounce the terrorist attacks and declare war on the terrorists who are "corrupting" their "religion of peace"?
Well, I did at least. I know you refused to acknowledge reality.
"I see the rope, you the snake."
Is that even a sentence?
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