Hoping you were making a joke, Plato...
Submitted by Michel (United States), Feb 19, 2007 at 14:48
Ys, Plato, a fun debate is fun - but I hope you were joking, when assuming that Noah is yet another split personalitry of mine.
I have been accused of pretty much anything here... but being Noah ?
I did try to find a correct number here on the internet as far as US Muslims are concerned... and found estimates ( we do not have citizens control like Switzerland) anywhere between 500k and 30M. To make a point I used the highest number which in the meantime has been evidcenced as most likely wrong and the correct amount being somewhere in between 2 and 12 M.
Something else - the American People, as far as I came to know and love them, are to a vast majority in fact motivated by a very sincere emotion to share the preciouos freedoms with the ones who do not enjoy those. More than ever a melting pot of incredible variety and, if there is indeed a common denominator across all origins, it is the appreciation of the liberties and principles of the constitution. It is a powerful, driven, young, at times naive and almost innocent society still, where in places such as my own village, Ojai, there is still a spirit of pioneer, unfinished, imperfect drive towards modern times.
As opposed to the many sarcastic voices resounding from "old" Europe and its leftist media, Oil was never at issue, when invading irak. At least not in the minds of the average john doe who supported the war due to Halabjah and elimination of a terrible tyranny.
The key moment for me personally to decide to become a US citizen was, when I played golf one day.
IN Europe you do not see such any more. It touched me deeply and I decided right there and then, that I wanted to be part of a society like that.
The US is neither a society of Hare Krishnas, nor is it of fanatics, It is mainly a civ with an unheard drive towards bettering circumstances of any kind. It is a sharing, curiouos, innovative, kind, giving, warm, totally heterogenuous people, where the strong assists the weak and family ties to pretty much all other cutlures lead to awareness of such disparity and ethicall driven motivation to improve their conditions.
It is not a policeman mentality, but love which motivates them to come to the aid of the weakest. And - as with most of the other countries - America is not its politicians....but badly represented at times like right now.
We have here laid out so many of the sad trends, decay of moral values etc., but in essence, this young civ can still be salvaged, it can heal itself, it has the power and the will to do it, can be rekindled.
As cliche, as it may sound, the American people do not wish to dominate others. conquer their oil or treasures, but actually still live in a mindset and genetic memory of oppression. Its inhabitants at one time were almost all opressed and such feelings penetrate over generations. I saw such first hand in my own family.
America is not Noah, Rumsfeld or Bush. America is so powerful, because it consists of people from every single corner of this world. Because of it, 9/11 the monsters killed over 300 of their "own"......as the Twin Towers" mix of people was pretty much congruent with the overal mix. Oftentimes conveniently overlooked, Muslims had as much to grieve about as the NY Fire Department or NYPD.
Having said that, engaging in a numbers debate with Noah concerning his evil MO is nothing more than a morbide exercise. So much work to diffute a strategy which could have its roots in outright Satanism. It is a wasted effort, and to even discuss it to this extent is almost like justifying some merits of truly insane ideas.
You'll never dent this walll of hatred, Plato, let it go and spend time with your wife instead.... ( I do not intend to patronize you in any way), but reading your last extensive post was sickening due to the content of what you tried to reason against...
To see once again to what length people are willing to go in a confrontation with a different culture, is disheartening. To honor such peoples opinions with extensive debates is to my opinion borderline to justifying insanity as true option...if that makes any sense.
As far as I am concerned, I offered Dhimmi a challenge to proove my statements about myself. If he picks up the gauntlet, and honors his side of the deal afterwards, it will be it for me and I'll fade into
My initial humor and light heartedness has in the meantime eroded to a kind of disconnected amazement.
I leave here with more questions than I started with and a high level of disillusion. I must concede that I was way too naive and it was a hard landing indeed. Susan and Noah managed in fact to exhaust and fatigue me to the extent of capitulation. It is like a horror movie and this stuff here has brought up nighmares i did not have for a long time. For self-preservation reasons, I ve got to leave this forum.
Thanks for all the education.
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