I tried - with a suggestion for Dr. Pipes.
Submitted by Michel C. Zala (United States), Jan 28, 2007 at 15:55
How about an experiment with answers to you, Plato, from two different, contrasting points of view?
Plato: "If even 10% are peaceful, just a ballpark figure, could be as low as 5, that is something to work with."
Noah: Show me where this mythical mass of moderate Muslims is reforming Islam? Are they doing so in Egypt? Jordan? The so-called Palestinian territories? Sudan? Iran? You have nothing to work with, Plato. People are basically referring to me, Susan, and other realists as "hawks", and yet you "doves" have yet to offer even a single, sane, workable, realistic, peaceful solution to the problem. It's New Age psychobabble, mainly from Michel. "Let's have a dialogue! Let's have conflict resolution!" No, let's have an effective, proven deterrent.
Michel: A) I look at the various (middle eastern) countries vs. B) domestic (immigrated) Muslims instead of the simplistic approach to bunch them into one group. Then – domestically spoken, your 10% are very much something to work with, whereas the 10% in the middle –eastern countries is a whole different ball game.
Plato: "I don't want to dredge up dead history, but the Inquisition was not so long go, and how many in the Catholic world would have approved of and cheered the burnings, tortures, and converting the infidels as you seem to believe of the Muslims today. This is relevant as Islam as practised today will soon be on the dust heap of yesterday."
Noah: Really? Do you really believe the absurd statement you just made? Militant Islam is growing in the world, Plato, not shrinking. It is expanding beyond the borders of Arabia and into the Western world. Iran is becoming ever more militant, Islamic terror groups are attaining the equivalency of statehood, Muslims are subverting culture in many western countries and even instituting Sharia law in those western countries. The Western world is paralyzed with fear and bends over backwards to avoid "offending" those savages, due to their barbaric reactions to even the most innocent actions (like political cartoons). People in western countries are in hiding because of fatwas from Muslims living in those supposedly free countries.
Michel : You nailed a key point indeed. The problem "ISLAM" in the 21st Century is nothing but our own bloody history, a few hundred years later, conducted within a global world, internet, computers, modern warfare. Hell - of course this enemy, if you wanna call it that, is a whole different ballgame, so much more complex. The effort to qualify and compare the crusades with today's challenges is indeed moot. And I agree with you as well on the dust heap – the only difference is going to be that the heap will be much bigger, as it may contain the ashes of our entire civilization.
"Certainly it is your duty. But by driving Muslims into a corner you make them even more dangerous like any cornered being."
Wrong again. A cornered animal is only dangerous of you're standing in the corner with them. Do yoyu mind backing your claim? If all Muslims are deported back to the middle east, and all aid is cut off from them, what can they do to us? They don't have nukes. They don't have a military worth spitting at. They are inferior militarily, economically, morally, and in every other way imaginable. What could they do to us from Arabia when they're penned in? Mount a wimpy tank attack into Europe? No. A couple of bombing runs from F-16s will take them out. Send a nuclear missile over? No, they won't be allowed to ever develop one (not that they ever could, without foregin aid). They certainly can't fly planes into our skyscrapers or walk a suitcase nuke into our country, because they won't be here and will not be allowed in.
My neck hair stands up straight by now and goose bumps all over…they are inferior in any sense of the word, was the key statement above. Where have I heard that statement before, in justification of pure evil? Other than that - a cornered animal will attack way beyond the flight zone. You do not need to be standing in the same corner.
"The blundering blunderbuss Bush did do that and the threat has only grown. I guess your response would have been even more powerful but i hate to think of its fallout."
Bush is a bumbling idiot and is owned by the Saudis. My approach would have been totally different and far more effective. The threat has grown because Bush is weak, and he has made America look weak with his paddy-cake war. That is not how you fight a war.
Bush operates within the frame conditions of our democracy. Even for me tough to swallow at times.
"Was what happened to the Red Indians "un-American"? You have heard that nice little phrase "the only good injun is a a dead injun".
Totally irrelevant to the subject and nothing more than an attempt at deflection. Stick to the topic.
Whoa - do not dare to mention our own skeletons, Plato, as it always will be dismissed as irrelevant or deflecting the topic. Even though that genocide is only several generations away, hence not so incredibly far down in the past, or that only a generation ago, blacks could not sit with whites or drink out of the same fountains, and we at present have people in jail for hate crimes (many more westerners than Muslims, I might add) is of course nothing in comparison to the grave Muslim danger…..LOL
"The drift of your argument seems to be "the only good Muslim is a dead one". "
No, the drift of my argument is that the only good Muslim is a reformed, peaceful Muslim. If that's not possible, then the only good Muslim is a Muslim confined to his cage (ie isolated in Arabia). If that in turn is not possible, then yes, the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.
Replace in above response the word Muslim with Dog and read it again. That's how far we progressed, evolved, developed as a civilization. I rest my case.
"On two of earth's largest land masses (not forgetting Australia) the West's ideals were established, but on the bones of injuns and aborigines. Morals and ideology (religion) did go out the window, but now it is all hunky dory again. But let us move on it is the dead past. "Stuff happens" in history, to quote a famous defender of American values."
Well, since we don't have a time machine, we can't go back and un-do that, now can we? So the issue is moot. Get back to the actual topic and stop deflecting.
The irony is that Noah and Susan mount fact after historical fact in evidence of their depiction of the ugly Muslim. As soon, as you dare to look inwards, touch on some of our own history, you deflect or avoid the issue at hand. It is a moving target, Plato, forget it.
"Well lets say Bin Laden managed to convince the Muslims to endure nuclear annihilation. How many nations are you going to nuke."
As many as it takes. If that means wiping all of them out, fine. As far as I care, we can nuke Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Kuwait, give one each to the USA, China, and Russia, and that will prevent any conflict between the Big Three over it.
????? - I am speechless. That is so beyond stupidity, I actually found myself laughing. We seem to argue with children here, Plato and I just realized, after reading the other outright moronic responses, that we absolutely waste our time here. I have way better things to do than to argue with people who see our world as a video game.
Unless other mature people offer intelligent contributions, I'll rather focus on some reality and leave the realm of this blog to the children's play.
I am sorry, 2 out of 100 is not good enough for me. Even the initial quality has now degraded to sand box play.
Dr. Pipes - if you are the moderator here, maybe it's time to close the session or apply some form of censorship, as so often sadly fact, well-intended food for thought brings out the worst and , in this case, the dumbest.
In the meantime, the "ugly Muslims" of our own society have taken over your blog. I can not believe that this was your intention. ( I'd appreciate your comment on that)
As far as I am concerned, one of the last moderate voices left the building.
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