Another delusional one?
Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Jan 22, 2007 at 03:52
Plato, I am afraid you're guilty of joining Michel in delusion here. You wrote:
"I am hoping that they have retired to think things through in the light of what they have learnt on these blogs. [snip] Hopefully he has enough food for thought and he sees some inkling of what his religion is all about."
That would be a rare occurrence. Muslims generally tend to leave when they cannot bullyothers into buying their propaganda. They are weak and cowardly by nature, which is why they wear masks when engaging in terror or promoting terror. It is why they target unarmed civilians using their children as suicide bombers. It is why their leaders hide in caves instead of sacrifcing themselves on the battlefield. And it is why Muslims on blogs such as this leave when they realize they cannot spew their propaganda. They know they cannot engage in intelligent, meaningful debate, so they leave. They don't leave in order to think about the enlightenment we've tried to generously bestow upon them. To believe otherwise is to be in delusion and denial of reality.
"Let them come out with their responses, their beliefs (their energy). Pick holes in them using real world examples, their history and their scriptures. The holes are always there and very big holes if you only look for them."
The problem with that approach is that 99.5% of them refuse to even acknowledge those holes. It's like the elephant in the room that no one seems to notice. Most Muslims will not listen to reason, they will not criticize their religion, they will not consider any point of view other than their own. Your approach is doomed to failure. They must be forced to reform. Otherwise, we'll have another 1,400 years of violent Islamic aggression. The first 1,400 is enough, I say.
"[Take a simple question I have posed to many. What would happen if someone, as did the Prophet, went to Mecca or any mosque in an Islamic nation and started preaching a new religion. And what would be the result if it was repeated in front of the Vatican or in front of a religious establishment in the free world. They all know the answer. There would be blood on the street in the Muslim world and amused looks on the beholders in the free world. I am sure bloggers here can come up with more mental experiments for Muslim readers]"
We've all issues such challenges, but the Muslims never rise to the occasion. All they can do is spew propaganda, as we have seen for two months here.
"It is better than gloating over the failures of the Muslim world."
Who's gloating? We're simply pointing out historical and modern facts of life. Facts the Muslims refuse to acknowledge. It's nothing to gloat over. It's something to be focused on though.
" It is better to demonstrate that the failure is due to their beliefs and practices."
Which is what many of us (myself, Susan, Dhimmi No More, etc have been doing). Muslims refuse to ever take responsibility for their failures though. They are infantile and childish and continue to blame everyone but themselves for their own failings.
"For instance in the vast majority of the Muslim world nearly fifty per cent of their human resources are wasted. The womenfolk make practically no contribution to their society except bring up children. In other religions women not only bring up children but contribute hugely to human creative endeavours. One has to show them that contrary to the claim that Islam emancipated women it imprisoned them forever behind veils and walls."
They've been shown that fact. They can see that fact in countries they move to. The problem is that they refuse to accept reality.
"Arguing about whether the West is better or not, its political policies, is a mindless game like disputing whether my father is better than your father."
That's moral relativistic bullshit. American culture is far superior to Islam, and that is an undeniable fact. One society endorses inalienable rights, happiness, freedom, tolerance, and goodness. The other endorses bigotry, racism, sexism, death, rape, intolerance, suppression of freedom, suppression of rights, genocide, etc. No sane person can claim that these societies are on an equal level. They are not. And Islam has to be shown that the west is indeed a better way of living. They need some role model to shoot for. They need to see that there is a better way.
"Rather what should be given an airing is the very fundamentals of the religion and the beliefs should be exposed to the cleansing rays of human reasoning, which is alive and well in all of us, including Muslims."
The "cleansing rays of human reasoning" are alive and well in Muslims? I about coughed by iced tea out my nose reading that joke! Where are these reasoning Muslims? About as rare as hen's teeth. Muslims are perhaps the most unreasoning people on earth! This is proven to use time and time again on a daily basis, all over the world.
"Given the 50-50 split between nature and nurture. Nature is what gives us our reasoning power and nurture (madrassas, pious propaganda) can do only so much against it. I say plug away, bring to light the horrors committed by people who they are hoodwinked into revering, show how the basics of the religion are ethically indefensible."
That's what people like me, Susan, Dhimmi No More and others do, but the Muslims refuse to listen. They don't understand the idea of Islam being ethically indefensible. It's infallible in their eyes and they refuse to believe otherwise. Notice the utter lack of response from those Muslims who have been challenged here to do so.
"Muslims out there do not want their children to grow up in a violent dangerous world."
Oh, sure. That explains why they send their kids out in suicide vests and pray for them to die while blowing up busloads of innocent Jewish women and children, right?
"The genes nature has provided all of us with militate against it. They want their children to survive and in turn procreate. That instinct is hardwired into us. "
And in Islam, this genetic nature has been overridden with the oppposite. They want their children to die committing atrocities.
"However much the mullah in the madrassa may try to nurture an inclination to jihad and annihilation the drive to live, survive and prosper is hard wired into our nature. No religion, no imam can rewire nature try as they might. "
Reality proves that claim to be totally untrue. If it were true, we would not have the majority of Muslims endorsing terror and sending their kids out to commit murder/suicide. If that were true, they would not be massing in the streets celebrating 9/11. If that were true, Iran would not be willing to sacrifice half its population in order to wipe out Israel.
"Just as the printing press brought the age of reason to christendom there is great hope that the internet age will usher in the Islamic age of reason. And what you see on these blogs is a small demonstration of it. It must be happening on other such innumerable site."
I have yet to see virtually any Muslim online that has been willing to look at the reality of his religion and question it, to rise to the challenges we present them with, or to consider that perhaps their religion is the problem. We've had the internet for over a decade now, and it has only gotten worse. They use the internet exclusively to spew propaganda.
"We can see anguished Muslims crying for explanations of some verses of the Koran, the age of marriage of Ayesha, the marriage of Zainab, Safiya and Rayhana, the treatment of the Banu Quraiza. Many Muslims will see through the soothing often incoherent replies from the "scholars" who reply to them."
Really? Where are all these mythical Muslims? I'm still waiting for evidence of the so-called moderate ones. Haven't seen it yet!
"Show them that the heroes of islam talked about in the madrassas and books would in todays world be jailed or hanged as mass-murderers (Khalid bin Walid).The treatment of dhimmis, including the famous pact of Oman, a matter of shame. You can show them passages inciting to kill and be killed in exchange for a binding promise of paradise. Show them moral depravity - captured women being freely used as concubines. Flawed ethics as when slavery is not condemned whereas something like usury is condemned and alcohol banned. Ask why slavery was not progressively banned. It continued in some Islamic countries until the late 20th century. Many Muslims will see through the lame, jaded excuses that will be trotted out.'
Sure, if you say so. That's why there are so many Muslims standing up and questioning their religion, right? That's why there is no reform in any Islamic state, right? That is why every Islamic state is still a bastion of intolerance, propaganda, murder, rape, genocide, and death, right? Because all these Muslims question their religion.
What planet did you say you were from?
"This is a sorry spectacle which Muslims will ponder over when they read the facts on the internet."
Oh sure. I saw how penitent and pensive Avenger and others were when it came up on this blog and we were discussing the fact about how Muslims stole Ayurvedic medicine from the Indians when Islam over-ran India. All they could manage to do was repeat the propaganda and lies they were bred with, and dismiss those facts as untrue despite being given direct links to the research.
"Argue using original sources, the Koran, Hadith, Sira and history written by Muslim historians. All other sources, history will probably arouse suspicion except when they sing paens to Islam. Even when filtered through Islamic spectales, the truth of the facts will shine through."
Even when using those respected Islamic sources, they refuse to discuss, question, or debate it. They live in a permanent state of denial of reality.
"That is the strength of the internet. They can have the facts confirmed from various sources. Almost all Islamic countries censor the internet which itself shows they fear the truth as not just pornography but sites which are even mildly critical of Islam are blocked."
Explain then, if you will, why so many of them accessing the internet from free countries still refuse to acknowledge reality and refuse to even look at the research.
"It is our task to wrestle them back to their conscious level so that they seem them for the fairy tales they are."
It is not our task. No one invited them here. No one asked them to live in ignorance and to try to impose their beliefs on us. They should go back to where they came from, or be killed. We do not have the resources to reform their religion. Only they can do so. So what must we do in order to force them to reform their religion? We must remove them from civilized society so that they cannot vent their murderous rage on innocent, civilized people. We must totally and utterly isolate them and let them understand that they are a pariah on the world and that they will not be allowed to interact with the civilized world or to receive aid, help, assistance of any kind, until they become civilized. And we must let them know that any attack on us will result in the eradication of their world...their so-called "holy sites", their population centers, their religion.
This is the only proper approach since it isolates them and puts the burden of transforming Islam back where it belongs...on Muslims. It spares the West countless lives, agony, and other problems. And it forces them to either evolve or extinct themselves. Evolution at work!
People who believe that it's as easy as telling them "your religion is broken" are purely delusional.
Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".
Reader comments (2099) on this item
Comment on this item
Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum. Daniel J. Pipes