Concessions I am willing to give.
Submitted by Michel (United States), Jan 21, 2007 at 16:22
I must admit, my mindset today in response to your last post has migrated quite a bit.
I did follow a thread and some links, Infidel provided and watched the entire UK Channel 4 dispatches documentary about the Mosque in Birmingham., filmed by an undercover journalist. I found myself after a couple of hours in shock, utter disbelief, as to how it is possible that the UK allows for such teachings to even occur. They had proof as to the violent, medieval, sick, narcistic, aggressive and radical nature of that "Imam". They had proof of , what the Wahabis as their ultimate legal power issues as Fatwas….. and they continue to let it happen. Just watch?
If this was a Neo-Nazi organization, its proponents would have to be arrested. But here - they did seemingly nothing. I do not know what to say. And I sure understand your frustration, as such happens across the Western World, even in the USA.
If this inaction, passiveness demonstrated by the UK authorities is indeed representative for much of the Western Society ( you did indeed mount tons of evidence to that fact), I am so with you in deploring and shouting against it.
This is indeed the utter perversion of our Freedom of free Speech. This is indeed weakness. It also goes against any of my personal beliefs and interpretations.
Having said that, I nevertheless did find some reason for hope in this ugliness. The documentary was also commented by Muslims of British origin and anti-Wahabi reps. These voices were extremely rational and did call for a much needed reform of ISLAM and the interpretations of the Koran. They condemned and negated these teachings almost as passionately, as you or I do. But they were Muslims.
"I am by simple logical deduction forced to deplore that as a form of defeatism."It's not called "defeatism", it's called "realism". It's being realistic by looking at reality and what is going on in the world. Do your research. Read your history. Get a book called Why Civilizations Fail. Our outcome is already written, unless we have a major change of spirit.
Okay – as phrased above - I concur.
The difference is that you're not willing to deal with reality, and I am. Look at our society. Look at how emasculated, fearful, cowardly, and apathetic we've become. Look at how our society is decaying...teen mothers at the highest rate of any developed nation, record number of unmarried couples with kids, broken homes, illiteracy on the rise, obesity on the rise (along with many other diseases), stupidity and ignorance rampant. Most people care only about doing their 9 to 5 job, and then plopping their fat asses down in front of the boob tube for 4-5 hours a day in order to vegetate and become more indoctrinated by the liberal media while stuffing their faces with junk food that causes them to become diabetic, cancerous, and demented.
I concur again. Evidence for the western decadence is overwhelming. In terms of mathematical probability, the odds are against the Willpower to reform. I am realist enough to see that.
Our society fears speaking the truth. We use euphemisms for everything. People are no longer short, they're "vertically challenged". Teachers are being told not to use red pens to mark answers on tests wrong, because red is too "harsh" a color. The CIA gave the FBI a list of Al Qaeda sleeper cells here in the states, and the FBI refused to go after them because (and I quote): "they have not committed any crimes". In the UK, the United Kingdom's Teacher Training Agency told trainees to say "thought shower" instead of "brainstorm" in order to avoid offending epileptics. We recently allowed CAIR members to tour our airports, showing them detailed screening techniques and security measures. Teachers are being pushed to avoid using the word "failed" for students who fail a test. Instead, they want to call a failing score a "deferred success" because using the word "fail" may harm the student's psyche. Calling it a "deferred success" means they will eventually pass the test because they'll feel better about themselves. If you think I'm making this up, do the research, it's not a joke.
Could not agree with you more – I could add another thousand such idiocies to your catalogue.
Denominator is " work for change" . Here I am with you.
Implement your solution I can not carry, as it belays the good achievements of our society. It betrays our principles.
Well you sit there and comfort yourself with false hope while the rest of us deal with reality then. That's what it really boils down to. Some of us are realist, some of us are fantasists.
We can influence our legislation. I become US citizen, so I can vote. We can stand up and voice opposition, wherever the achievements of our democracy are being perverted. We can lead by example.
I agree – But I do not see myself as "denying reality", but trying to somehow live in it.
Explain then why we cater to minorities? Why do people in a free country quake in fear whenever a black person spews the word "racism"? Why are we afraid to take a stand against illegal aliens and sit quietly like frightened sheep when the illegal Mexicans take to the streets in protest, demanding illegal rights? Why is everyone in the government afraid to speak the truth about Islam, and in total denial of reality refer to it as the"religion of peace"? Show me where this mythological "strength" is dominant in our society.
All evidence for a sad state of our affairs which I deplore as much and as passionately , as you do , Noah.
The ability to distilling down the failure of Challenger to one measly O-Ring.
I agree that our system is superior to anything else, but that doesn't matter. The enemy loathes it and condemns it. We can't serve as an example, because they hate what we stand for.
That may be true – heck - in the eyes of any radical it is. Why do they hate it? Because it denies them any justification. Because it "corrupts" their own people with ideas of freedom and liberty. The poison they talk about. There are more followers than leaders – it is why the latter are afraid, as, what we stand for, proves its points every single day.
" We will rigorously defend above, when we are threatened."You mean like right after 9/11 when Bush told everyone to "go shopping" and that was our society's response? Or do you mean like when tens of thousands of criminal aliens from Mexico stormed our streets and blocked traffic and interfered with business, and everyone just sat around and did nothing? Show me this rigorous courage you seem to want to believe in.
Terrorists, Anarchists objectives is Terror and Chaos. To deny those maniacs this objective and proving them as being irrelevant, is not a stupid approach. The Brits are a great example. To use a tube station one day after it got blown up, as if nothing had happened, shows great courage, while denying these maniacs the satisfaction.
Then you're in denial of reality and unwilling to face a growing threat head-on. This New Age Kumbayah Singing Bliss Bunny Group Hug Philosophy is nonsense. The enemy does not care if we're "morally superior" in our own eyes or if we can question ourselves. They thrive on our constant questioning of ourselves. They hate us. Do you understand that? They hate us and everything we stand for.
Again – I do not argue either way, if they hate us. Mute point. I solely see our capability to continuously strive for perfection and improvement by asking ourselves what we could do better, by exploring our own weaknesses as a strength.
On the other hand, believe that some Willpower could in fact be regained for a much needed reform of our own "decadency " , as a basis for successful perseverance against any threat."You can believe that aliens built the pyramids, if you like. That doesn't make it reality. Again, where do you see this tremendous strength? How do you see it manifesting, when it doesn't seem to exist? Your theories seem credible only in Fantasyland.
A growing number of people who see perversion of originally well-intended rights. Efforts to revise liability laws. Tightening of the legislature (Patriot Act) as a (small) step in the right direction. Efforts to network the various department intelligence in the USA (IRS, INS, Intelligence Community), Dr. Michael Josephson (Character counts) and so on lead me to believe that the "sleeping" bear can be awakened.
Wrong. I believe Islam is one of the major threats we face, second only to our own apathy and refusal to acknowledge reality.
Burying one's head in the sand is not considered an effective survival technique, just to let you know.
"Highly ironic once again, our entire debate boils down to one key word: F A I T H."No, it boils down to a word called "REALITY". Either you acknowledge reality or you live in denial of it. Faith has nothing to do with it. You can have all the faith you want that the so-called moderate Muslims will save you from the global jihad, but I can assure you, they will not be there to save you when the so-called radicals come to cut off your head. Reality shows this to be true.
My slant here is only, that I have faith in ourselves. Not in the Muslim community. I do not wait for them to save me, I promote to stand up and save ourselves. I agree with you that the Reality looks grim and the odds are lousy. So where is that Faith coming from?
I was blessed to be able to travel almost the entire world. One for me amazing find was, that no matter in a kraal in Africa, a village in Chechnya, in Warszawa or Philadelphia, in the Phillipines or China or Mexico, or in Tigris - when sitting with a local family at the dinner table, I listened to the very same idle form of chatter. The very same basic human challenges. The need to provide, the need to eat, the need to make money, the need to speak freely. We always point out, how diverse those many cultures are, but fail to acknowledge how similar the average individuals. It is because of that that I feel that basic human needs come first, no matter where you are. It is why I have faith in our society, because it stands for exactly satisfying these basic human needs.
What do you mean "if"? It's already happening, man! Wake up! Our society has already lost faith in its superiority. It has already lost its moral compass. It has already lost its hope, its drive, its energy, and its sense of self. And this is all being further diluted daily by illegal Mexicans, subversive Muslims, traitorous liberals, and space cadets in denial of reality. We are falling apart. And we can't fix it unless and until people wake out of their somnambulent trance, turn off the tv, and get a whiff of actual reality.
As incredible, as that may sound coming from me - you are absolutely right. I should have put in a disclaimer as in " if we completely loose faith….The trends are evident, the signs on the wall. The patient is indeed in a coma.
Proof once again that your claims, your views, your beliefs, and your solutions simply do not hold up to the light of reality. The question now is...are you going to come around to admiting reality, or remain in denial of it, waiting until the day the jihadis come slice your head off, while praying for the mythical moderates to save you?
I would not be a pragmatist, if I denied the reality you depict. It's grim. My own little lab experiment failed miserably - I humbly must accept as fact. In that sense – I concede defeat and a weak position.
However, Noah – in response to "Denial" - if you really did read my posts, then you saw that I promoted a "Marketing Mix" of instruments up to and not limited to warfare to counteract the Muslim threat you very solidly evidenced. The difference between us is, that I see various ways ( including introspective) to win and in essence disagree on the magnitude of several actions you promote.
The very fact that you can call voices like mine "fanatical" proves precisely what I have been saying all along. Mainly, that our society lives in stark denial of reality and is weak and ineffective. You want to remain in Fantasyland, in some New Age board room, singing Kumbayah and hoping against hope that the enemy will inexplicably and miraculously change his ways. And when those of us who actually live in reality present the truth, it confuses you, it offends you, it disturbs you, and you are forced to dismiss it as "fanaticism" simple because we refuse to play your suicidal mind games.
Words again. I could have used the word "extreme measures". Fanaticism in our context was not meant to be an insult, but a simple description for "extreme" measures. It does not offend me, but yes, it disturbs me.
24h after 9/11, I offered my services to the CIA/FBI. Unconditionally. I will die for this country, if she calls me.
You seem to be able to do that. To entertain insane ideas in face of insanity. I accept and respect your point of view and the fact that you are willing to pay an enormous price for our survival but...
Eradicating an entire culture, as nasty it may look at times, can not be the solution.
If you are right, and all your evidence is the ultimate truth, this world deserves another species to be extinct. That is my realistic conclusion. Not just another race or culture – the human species.
I asked the one Muslim, who responded to me: What price are you willing to pay for your wonderful paradise, as I ask you now the very same question.
Survival at all costs is not something I can buy in to.
In conclusion Noah – your price tag on our survival is too high for me. I'd rather die than to betray the memory of my Grandparents who died in Auschwitz by using the same methods to suppress my "enemy", as the Nazis did.
Can I deny the hatred and anger, I felt, when watching the video of the sermon given by the Imam in Birmingham? No. By all means, go ahead and euthanize this moron. Do I feel the same anger and hatred towards the hundreds of listeners, eating the propaganda up like manna from heaven? Nope. I feel sorry for them, as they are sheep being led to the slaughterhouse.
Watch the video, but focus on the British Muslim who comments on it. He is proof that there are ( some) modern Muslims, willing to call for reform and condemn those depraved, medieval teachings. Are you willing to sacrifice people like him with your drastic all encompassing MO too?
I am not, even, if these voices are at present few and far apart. It is another basic human need to be loved, respected and surrounded by support. I respect those who are willing to alienate their own and forego this basic need, as it deeply hurts to be belittled, patronized, attacked by people you call your own, just because you have a different viewpoint.
I am emotionally bruised, tired and exhausted by the onslaught of differing opinions here. And that came from my own people. It takes a good level of masochism to be willing to try, which is why these many silent people, the mythical moderates you call them, Noah, I hoped to see en masse, have not materialized.
They are simply much smarter than I am, but – let me tell you, my moderate friends –
as opposed to Noah and Susan, Infidel and dhimmi, I am ashamed of you and I walk away from here in disgust, whereas I respect the aforementioned as willing to speak up, voice at times harsh, even radical opinions and in general " do the work". They have backbone at least, whereas I can call you guys only Cowards with no spine. You enjoy the blessings and privileges of our society, yet lack any courage to defend it.
It does not matter what Susan or Noah or Infidel promote, but that they do it.
You on the other hand just watched like the passive onlookers in a NY Subway during a gang rape. Probably smiled ironically, shook your heads but otherwise just sat there nice and cozy.
If you – the silent majority – continue to do so, I can not come to any other conclusion than Noah –
we are doomed.
God help us all.
Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".
Reader comments (2101) on this item
Comment on this item
Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum. Daniel J. Pipes