I don't think we're on the same page here
Reader comment on item: How the West Could Lose
Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Jan 18, 2007 at 01:56
Michel, I think we're on a much different page than you seem to realize. To start, you wrote:
"Do you realize, how far we actually progressed from exchanging borderline insulting personal comments towards a debate with a chance for compromise, if we were two parties negotiating a contract or so?
This isn't a game, it isn't some New Age conflict resolution seminar. It is deadly serious. It's not fun, it's not a game. We are, after all, talking about the fate of free people the world over. There can be no compromise on this, because compromise is seen by the enemy as weakness and it only encourages them. Force is all they understand.
"3)The willingness to find grey in between black and white is key – Heck - I ( personally and individually) believe that a resolution to an almost impossible dead end such as the current Palestine Conflict, could be found, if all parties were willing to give an inch, and would honestly be willing to depart from their bunkers, where they have dug in for so many years"
What the hell are you talking about? Israel needs to give an inch? That's all Israel does is give an inch, and the so-called Palestinians take a mile! Israel has made concession after concession, they have ceded land for "peace", they give the so-called Palestinians total freedom, and what do they get in return? Suicide bombings. Rape. Murder. Terror. Rocket attacks. Just this week, on the 42nd anniversary of Hamas's putrid creation, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas called for terror against Israel. Here's a few quotes from his speech:
"Shooting at your brother is forbidden. Raising rifles against the occupation is our legitimate right, but raising guns against each other is forbidden. We should put our internal fighting aside and raise our rifles only against the Israeli occupation."
"The sons of Israel are mentioned as those who are corrupting humanity on earth."
It's time for Israel to stop bending backwards and start destroying the cancer in their society.
"We would have to migrate away from depicting the shortcomings of the other side, mount huge mountains of factual evidenced to that, but would have to focus on even the slightest entry point towards constructive dialogue."
So far, that has not worked. And that is because one side is uncivilized.
"As daily life so often demonstrates, such debates usually end up with slammed doors and no resolution. In the case of conflicts between countries or deeply penetrated culture and religion - that has led to a lot of horrific blood shed and misery."
"All I try is to not judge, but try to find even the slightest bit of common ground, the lowest common denominator in a sense. Simply because I strongly believe that ISLAM as a culture or religion is here to stay and can not by any means be "removed or eradicated". ( I know, Noah – you think it could be done J)"
Oh, mark my words. It can be done. The only issue is one of willpower. The Nazis, with less power than the USA, almost eradicated an entire race.
"The simple difference between you and Noah or myself is, that I accept them as a fact of life, like the weather and am convinced that fundamentally a western style democracy is so much superior to any other form of regime that leading by example alone may prove to be sufficient to "convert" radicals of any origin."
You're delusional then. They've always hated us. They hate anything that is not Islam. Freedom and democracy American-style is like kryptonite to those maniacal monsters.
"They simply do not know better. But Ideas do not stop at borders and the truth has a nasty habit – it can not be suppressed over time – it always comes out eventually."
Strange, Islam has not seen the truth in 1,400 years. I think they've had long enough to come to their senses.
"Do such countries have a long way to go? Absolutely"
Patch up that hole you just shot in your foot. ;-) Islam is not a country. It is a global pandemic of violence and savagery. It is uncivilized, barbaric, unreasoning and unintelligent. You cannot reason with it, you cannot negotiate with it. You can only surrender to it or defeat it.
" Did it appall you to see the execution of Saddam looking like a lynchmob with skimasks, chanting Moqtada? Horrific – belayed any impression of legitimacy - looked like those terrorists beheading western hostages on video"
Horrific? Please! Horrific is seeing people's head slowly sawed off, or seeing them fed into a wood chipper or seeing them have their intestines exploded with forced air. Saddam's death was peaceful and far too lenient for such a monster. They should have tortured him, then burned him alive. Or better yet, they should have fed him into a wood chipper, feet first.
What did you expect from those people? An American style court?
Michel, I think you just don't get it. You don't understand what the enemy is, the stakes involved, or the realities of the world we live in.
"As mentioned in many of my posts, I dare to offer that we must explore on our own end all ways to ensure co-existence and cooperation and allow them, assist them, to reform from within. "
Again, you simply dont' get it. The enemy is not interested in peaceful co-existence. They want a worldwide Islamic caliphate and nothing else. You just refuse to acknowledge that reality.
What is causing you to remain in denial of reality? Is it fear of the inevitable battle to come? Is it simply a desire to avoid responsibility for changing things? Because you keep writing stuff like this:
"If true – and I haven't seen much to the contrary indeed - you are right again."
So why do you keep saying "if true", "if you're right", "if that's the case ". We've presented the uncontested evidence. Reality and history proves this to be true. And yet you still want to hem and haw and pretend it isn't happening. How much "evidence" is going to be enough for you? Why do you insist on doubting the truths you admittedly see presented?
Here's a test. Take a flight into Saudi Arabia or Iran with a suitcase full of Bibles. Tell them you're giving them the benefit of the doubt and that you just want to talk to the people and compare Christianity to Islam and determine whether Islam is truly violent and barbaric.
See if you live long enough to regret it. There's reality for you! Would you still be denying it as they slit your throat and chopped your head off?
This is a great problem in the west...denial of reality. People just can't handle reality.
"Godspeed, when the Astronauts took of for the moon was used too."
Why continue to doubt it? Why waste time asking mythical creatures called "moderate muslims" for proof? They're congenital liars anyway, and mandated by their religion to lie to you. Only a total fool would listen to what they said. Do the research...you have a computer, you have the internet. No on in this day and age should have any doubts, because the research is right there at our fingertips.
"The success of guerilla style tactics vs even the giant, USA, lead me to believe otherwise."
Guerilla tactics don't work if there are no guerrillas to engage in warfare. Nukes do a very thorough job of wiping people out and leveling infrastructure.
"A bit too simplistic for my taste – Using nukes on a large scale? We'd be destroying the very world we live in as well. "
No we wouldn't. Low yield nukes and clean bombs would give minimal contamination. And there's always our MOAB bombs and firebombing. We don't necessarily need nukes to wipe their cities and holy sites out.
"No regime, culture or government has survived in the long run with that mindset."
Islam has managed to hang in there for 1,400 years. I don't think we can afford to wait for it to "die of old age".
"Another fact I can not disagree with. Introspectively though, I know several European Countries with serious issues to address their own skeletons in the closet too. (CH, FR, IT, RU, ESP, even GER) Not that I try to condone the genocide or compare numbers - It is just another fact of life that so few are willing to take responsibility for their actions ( and then draw the right conclusions from it)"
Now see, there is another intellectually dishonest answer. Susan explained how the Turks have committed genocide against the Armenians, and you deflect it with irrelvant and meaningless references to other countries having committed atrocities in the past. You just seem pathologically resistant to admitting the truth. Why is that?
"all we can do is condemn Mussolini and hopefully some Muslims will follow suit and look at their own a bit more critically."
If you truly believe that, then you are totally delusional. You clearly have no direct experience with Islam. Let me know the day that Muslims criticize themselves. That way, I can buy (and be assurde of winning) the lottery. How many impossible things before breakfast?
" How Could I possibly debate the above statement. What would be my answer? No I am not - Yes you are –No I am not - yes you are, no you are arrogant by telling me that I am…… never ending circle of mute character assassinations."
No, your answer, if you are being honest and acknowledging reality, would be "well, you're right". Because they are arrogant. Try turning on the news some night.
"I used the example not to call him Christian - I used it as an example for domestic home grown terrorism we must fight with the same vengeance as the Islamic version of it.."
Domestic homegrown terror with an Islamic component that has been brushed under the rug, you mean. Go read that book!
"Inasmuch as you do not feel Racist being an insult, I do not feel insulted being called a relativist. It is accepting ALL things and any statement always with a grain of salt. Why is that so bad?"
I'll tell you why. Moral relativism is a cowardly mechanism for avoidance of responsibility and nothing more. It is an emasculation, a corruption, of morality. Our kids are being taught that all cultures are equal. Bullshit! Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, China...none of them are equal to American culture. None are on the same moral level. Moral relativism is nothing more than an avoidance mechanism. It allows people to avoid taking a stand, to avoid taking responsibility, to avoid reality itself. Instead of calling evil "evil", we claim that it's "not evil, from a particular point of view". Who invented this nonsense? Obi Wan?
Moral relativism prevents people from dealing with problems and from sacrificing and from doing the hard and often unpleasant work needed to correct problems and root out evil. With moral relativism, there really is no true evil, therefore there can be no true good. How do you guide your life if everything is relative?
According to moral relativism, if I decided to come kill your kids, cook them with a side dish of fava beans and a fine cianti, that's good from a relative standpoint, because maybe it helps me get rid of my stress and anger, and of course, the world is overpopulated, right?
Nonsense! That's pure evil, and there can be no argument on that by sane people.
"As opposed to you I see the danger much more fundamentally – undue influence of various religions and cultures on the day to day life in the western world. Not just Islam."
Really? Where is Christianity forcing people to convert? Where is Buddhism or Taoism trying to convert people? Where is Judaism forcing itself on people? I'm just not seeing it.
"Separation of Church and state is being eroded as we speak."
Do you even understand where the separation of church and state came from? Do you know what the Constitution says about it? Without having to look it up on Google? Can you show me where the USA is violating the separation of church and state? It's only happening in the twisted minds of the ACLU (Anti-Christian Liberal Union).
" I can not refute many of the quotes and (historical) references. I have not heard one single introspective, moderate muslim voice"
Why then do you still doubt? Why do you continue to deny the mountain of evidence, 1,400 years of history, current events, the words and actions of Muslims, and reality itself? I really think you need to explore this hesitance, this reluctance...hell, this refusal...to acknowledge reality.
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