Submitted by CanadianChris (Canada), Jan 12, 2007 at 02:30
Submitted by Noah Wilk, Jan 10, 2007 at 00:31
Mr. Wilk, the slippery slope you are suggesting is akin to condemning all of Christianity for the outrageous actions of Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or any future radical of Christianity that rears its ugly head. The inability to distinguish an enemy is not cause to condemn an entire cross section of humanity. The Israelis have had to fight this kind of battle for years trying, often unsuccessfully, to avoid civilian casualties in a guerrilla type conflict. The effort on the part of Israel to attempt in earnest to avoid collateral damage is what keeps global support for them alive.
"I. Moderate ISLAM : Muslims, of the western world, second, third generation immigrants"
I live in a neighbourhood that is quite significantly populated by Muslims and Sikhs and I can say that 99 out of 100 of my experiences with these people is positive. I know that there is sometimes friction between different philosophies and cultures and it has shown its ugly head but it is the exception and not the rule. I have seen organized rallies and large gatherings of people begging for the radicals to stop. It is not as prevalent as would be desired but it is there and growing in strength.
"II. Muslims living in Muslim ( Arabic, PacRim) countries
III. Radical, Militant, Fundamentalist ISLAM - global and networked with above"
Most Muslims??? How many Muslims do you know? How many are trying to avoid getting involved for fear of reprisal while power struggles have not created stability? I would say that most Muslims are afraid to speak out because there are veins of militancy that are aggressive and ruthless. It is like standing in a room with 100 white guys and being told that there are a significant amount of gays in the room, how could you tell who is heterosexual when there is no ability to identify the sexual orientation by sight. The determination of personal preference becomes an intellectual task, and brute force creates more problems than it solves.
" As you, Chris, I was not much appreciated for that by our radical anti-islamic front.
Forcefully confronting a dire threat is hardly "radical".
"Millions of them live with us for generations now and we have yet to hear of suicide bombings in any City of the USA for example."
I agree that Sharia law is not something that I should have to submit to, I would resist any efforts to have that law imposed upon me. There is significant proof that there are extreme cases of human rights abuses.
"It is something, any even harsh regime could never defend against, let alone a civilized country with all our precious freedom and liberties."
I find it interesting that someone would believe that it would stop at only excluding ‘one' religion. There would be a drive for religious dominance, it has happened many times in history don't think for a second that religion has evolved to avoid sinking to that level again. Religious power over people would begin again. You are talking madness my man.
"The "Threat" I can see from this category comes from its population growth, whereas our population shrinks. Something which has a lot to do with our so often denied decadence."
Our decadence is a matter of fact, and we can't keep denying it. And here we do agree. The population growth is where Islam is most threatening. The only way to defeat it is to outlaw Islam and deport Muslims.
The way to fight population growth is a mystery, because we haven't had to do it before. Either you are a genius who has discovered the answer of enlightenment for the world, or possibly there is more than one approach to population growth. I don't know myself because I am not that smrt.
"Since however ISLAM seems to be mu ch more all encompassing to its believers, I'd feel a bit uncomfortable, if Muslims would become majorities determining and dominating our legislature. First test in approx. 15 years:"
The voters chose him and he must have some qualities that are desirable.
"Vilifying, oppressing, attacking this segment would not only be not justified, it would create breeding grounds and open up millions of recruits for radical ISLAM."
Even with the bad rep that America has in the Muslim world, I bet that you would be hard pressed to find many Muslims in your neighbourhood that hate America.
"The religion should be treated equal like any other church, strictly separated from state and monitored for what it preaches."
I would say that you are confusing the issue. All religions should be treated equally, all of them submit to the law of the country. Any religion that refuses to submit to the law of the country loses its religious status and no longer receive tolerance. So, now can you tell me how often a Muslim organization formed from American Muslims has consistently disobeyed American law? Not including peaceful protest.
"Our Freedom of Speech may have to be revised to the fact, that no Church, Mosque or Temple is to be allowed to preach fanatism, expansion and/or militancy."
There is no need for such "modification". As it already exists, you cannot incite violence or slander others. Freedom of speech in America already has limits and parameters built into it. And we're not enforcing it as it is now. So your idea here is already a moot point. We can and should be arresting and deporting (or jailing or even hanging) these radicals for inciting violence, but it's not being done. Our president and others are too busy falling over one another trying to prove what a loving, peaceful religion Islam is. To hear them speak, you'd think they were talking about Buddhism!
Well all I can say to this is that either the system of government that you love so much is broken or the system of government that you love is working to do precisely what it is supposed to do, protect the rights of citizens of America.
"Enforcement of this policy should include strict and decisive measures up to expatriation, even removal of citizenship for naturalized Citizens of any cult, movement, religion or breed. For others incarceration"
See my above comment
"Giving Moderate ISLAM the means to influence, teach and educate its followers in the back countries would be another possible approach. Media, TV, Internet etc. Giving moderate Muslim leaders public exposure would also educate our own paranoid populus. How about a practicing Muslim as secretary of state or another important public office. Visibility. leading by example is the key."
Again, Congressman, chosen by the citizens, his ability and decision making trusted by the voters.
"In parallel we would need to stimulate our own people again to build families and have chidren. That could be done via economical measures. Further, a strong visonary leadership builds trust, optimism and hope for a brighter future. The people need to be motivated again to partake actively in the political process. Voting could be made mandatory. The porking and corruption in most western capitals must be stopped, so people can trust their leaders again. People who promote "character counts". must get exposure, so core moral and ethical values become once again part of the rater decadent western life, as we see it currently."
Well with that attitude, all I can say is, at least everything changes and nothing stays the same.
"Lastly immigrants of any origin must assimilate. We should no longer allow for catering to minorities and the building of veritable ghettos in our big cities"
Have you met Mexicans? They are fantastic. They may be expanding but remember that is exactly how your forebears became Americans. Don't forget the Native Peoples, who had little choice in the matter of a migratory population. There is an intelligent respectful and responsible way to deal with the population issues and the immigration issues without being isolationist.
We refuse to acknowledge Islam as the root of the Islamic problem. We still insist that Islam is the "religion of peace".
If we can't even boldly acknowledge the problem, how can we do anything about it?
We all must accept our role in ‘the problem' and look intelligently (using violence and discrimination as a last resort) for a solution.
"Some of these countries are third world economies with outright medieval structures. Quality of life is subpar, unemployment, poverty and always in such cases correlated orthodox religious indoctrination."
They're that way simply due to following Islam. Everwhere Islam dominates, you see these problems.
Did you read about the female Muslim astronaut from America? Do you know about Muslims who are studying cosmology in America to better understand out place in the universe? Have you seen the Muslims in philosophy classes at colleges and universities across your country? The belief that a philosophy can only be seen one way by a group of people is narrow minded and naive.
I could go on with this but I don't believe that I will change your mind and I also believe that there are people intelligent enough to see through your comments to your motivation. So I don't feel the need to go on.Again, I agree, but good luck making it happen.
Look, step one in any problem solving issue is to identify and isolate the problem. We refuse to face reality. We refuse to admit that Mexico is engaged in a subversive and purposeful assault on the United States, a migratory attack, which constitutes an act of war. We won't even refer to illegal aliens as illegal aliens. We use idiotic euphemisms such as "undocumented workers".You're talking about a revolution. That's what it would take at this point. We are beyond hope.
Too many have literally grown fat and lazy, indolent and apathetic to what's going on. Our children are being indoctrinated into revisionist history, guilt complexes, multicultural anti-American nonsense, and all sorts of propaganda. We're losing our next generation. The generation after that, the takeover will be automatic.We already have a member of Congress who is Muslim and he's already refused to say whether he would give the Constitution or the Koran ultimate authority in decision making, and has already started engaging in pro-Islam revisionist history, lies, and propaganda. Wake up!We already have the mechanism for this.
Our society simply lacks the backbone and the will to enforce it.Can't be done. First, that would require us to publicly acknowledge the Koran as violent, as the source of violence for Muslims, as the motivating factor. No politician has the spine to do that. Doing so would result in a torrent of condemnation by Muslims, who are psychologically unable to criticize their religion.Erroneous logic. They already hate us. They already endorse, or at least refuse to speak out against (and continue to fund), terrorism. This whole logic of "if we only stop opposing them, they will start liking us" is delusional in the extreme. Reality shows us this is simply not true.
Explain, for example, Israel. Muslims there have more freedoms and rights than they have in ANY Muslim country, and yet they engage in non-stop terrorism there.Wrong. First test occurred several days ago, and they failed. Ellison was sworn in on the Koran, and already he's engaging in revisionist history and claiming that Thomas Jefferson used the Koran partly as the basis for the US Constitution. Didn't take long for the propaganda to start! He was also asked whether, if a question of law came up where the Constitution said one thing and the Koran another, he would obey the laws of the Constitution or those of the Koran. He refused to answer.
Some people though, seem content to go to their graves denying reality.If we, and Israel, would simply expel the invaders and ban Islam until it becomes civilized and reformed, we would not have a problem. There would be no Islamic force in America, no Islamic teachings, no Muslims.Covered this already in my other post. And it's not just the violence, it's the mass migration and demographic assault that's a danger. If Muslims become the majority here, we will end up with Sharia law, which is what CAIR wants and which is what happens everywhere they become a majority.
Even in countries that are not run by Islamic law (Sharia), but where Muslims are the majority, look at how bad it is. Again, show me a country that is dominated by Islam/Muslims that does not feature suppression of rights, violence, intolerance, etc. The migratory attack is more insidious and more dangerous than outright terrorism.Most Muslims living in Islamic countries are radicals. See my post about the majority of Jordanians, Egyptians, and others who endorse terror in those countries. The numbers are all well above 50%. The division is not significant.I've met many of these so-called second and third generation "moderates" and they are anything but moderate.
We have yet to see this mythical mass of moderate Muslims step forward in any meaningful way to denounce terror and to transform their religion. Hence, they cannot be part of the solution as long as they remain passive observers.
Wrench in the engine of extremism wrote:What the hatemongers in this blog do not want to appreciate, is the fact that we can not just put all of ISLAM into one cliche drawer and consider them grosso mode as threat to the western civ."
First, your portrayal of those of us who strongly oppose Islam as "hatemongers" is inaccurate and uncalled for. Second, it is Islam itself that is breeding this violence, hence Islam itself must be dealt with en masse.
Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".
Reader comments (2100) on this item
Comment on this item
Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum. Daniel J. Pipes