Let's get our facts straight!
Submitted by Noah Wilk (United States), Jan 10, 2007 at 19:34
Michel, you're obfuscating again and trying to turn this into a religious comparative analysis. You wrote:
"In logical conclusion, what makes the Quran so different ? Why can we not acknowledge even the slightest possibility that this ancient writing could also be the basis for a variety of shades and interpretations within ISLAM?"
The bottom line is that Islam has brought misery and suffering everywhere it exists. Once again...let us deal with reality, Michel. If Islam has so many shades of interpretation, then why aren't you (or anyone else I've challenged) able to show me one single Islamic nation on earth where religious intolerance, violence, hatred, propaganda, suppression of freedoms, and rape are not rampant? Where is this mythological "moderate" Muslim country? Perhaps there is one. It's called Fantasyland.
Next, you wrote:
"Please name one genocide or atrocity committed by ISLAM which tops 9 million people dead in Concentration Camps or on the battlefield of WWII. That was a Western World Product, right?"
And once again I will say that this is irrelevant. Are you going to tell me that it's ok for Islam to be genocidal simply because other countries have engaged in greater atrocities? And get your facts straight. The total deaths for WWII was roughly 62 million, not 9 million.
But let's look at Islamic genocide. How about in east Bengal in '71, when Muslims Pakistanis slaughtered 1 to 3 million Hindus (2.5 million being the most accepted number)? How about Muslims in India having killed somewhere between 10 and 50 MILLION Hindus in the past 13 centuries? How about the 1.5 MILLION Armenians killed by Islam in 1915-1923? How about the half-million killed by Muslims in Sudan?
How about the fact that in Iraq, in 2006, there were 16,791civilian deaths caused by Muslim terrorists, compared to just 214 killed accidentally by US forces (source: Iraqbodycount.net)? Islam has committed 7,154 deadly terror attacks since 9/11/2001. That's 1,342 per year, or almost 4 per day, every single day, ever since 9/11.
You seem to want to make this a comparitive numbers game, which it isn't. Yes, Nazism was an evil force which caused the deaths of millions. Islamsm likewise is an evil ideology which has caused the death of many millions. Islam has an unblemished record of atrocities that starts with the founding and continues to this very day. Or perhaps that hasn't occurred to you yet. The entire history of Islam is one of expansionist violence and intolerance, misery and death, suppression and genocide. Anywhere you find Islam, you find these things. I defy you to show me the exception. Where does Islam dominate in the world without these evils?
Next, you continue with this :
"Could my personal individual decoding be acceptable ?Look inwards first and clean up your own act, before you start judging others. Before you start to condemn an entire culture, all members of another religion, one may want to first examine your own past and history. Be squeeky clean before throwing mud at others?"
First of all, no people, no nation, is perfect. Each has its own issues. So your challenge is irrelevant and immature. What we need to look at is which countries promote goodness, freedom, happiness, tolerance, and beneficial things to the world, then look at those countries which promote nothing but evil. That's how you judge these things. In relation to one another.
Once again, try stepping up to the challenge instead of wimping out. Show me what good Islam is producing for the world. Show me where and how it is contributing to freedom, happiness, tolerance, or any other positive quality. Show me how, when a neutral observer sits back 50 years from now, that person will judge Islam and its effects on the world during our times. Can you handle that, or are you going to backpedal once again?
Finally, you wrote:
"Just scanning the Bible I just found another rather interesting passus:"
Michel, try paying attention here. Reading comprehension is a good thing, you know? I've covered this several times already. Try listening this time.
The Old Testament in the Bible is superceded by the New Testament. "An eye for an eye" is replaced with "Love your neighbor as yourself". Get it? The New Testament rules of love and peace over-ride the violent laws of the Old Testament. With Islam it is the exact opposite. The newer, more violent verses supercede any earlier peaceful ones.
So all your quoting of violent verses from the Bible is irrelevant to the discussion. Do you understand this yet?
Wait...I can't overlook this :
"It remains to be seen, if our own acitivists would be willing to hear them out and accept such peaceful interpretations coming from individuals living within this culture. I'd rather hear from a Muslim Expert than from a Westerner trying to tell me, how the Quran is to be interpreted inasmuch, as I would not take a Mullah seriously, trying to explain the Bible to me. It's gotta come from within."
First of all, Muslims are mandated to lie to the "infidels", so why would they tell us the truth ...? We see them lie about it daily, calling it the "religion of peace". We see Arafat and other Muslim leaders preaching peace in English for Western audiences, then moments later preaching hate, Jihad, ant-Semitism, and other evils in Arabic to their Muslim audiences. It's a shame you're so gullible that you're willing to believe an enemy who is sworn by his religion to lie to you, but don't expect the rest of us to be so blindly naive to reality. I would sooner trust a Western expert on Islam, who is not a practicing member. That way you get the truth because he is not compelled by his religion to lie to use about the interpretations.
Second, why would you dismiss a Western expert on Islam, simply because he's not a practicing Muslim or living in an Islamic hellhole? That seems pretty arrogant and also pretty ignorant when you think about it. You're saying that no one outside of Islam is capable of understanding their belief system.
Wake up Michel. Reality is there waiting for you.
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