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Re:somewhat twisted arguments

Reader comment on item: "Moslem States Represent a Potential Threat to World Peace"
in response to reader comment: Islam in the West: A Perilous Premise!

Submitted by Stuart (United Kingdom), Feb 17, 2006 at 05:12

I can't see how the analogy of Islamic expansion, that pretty much ended in the 16/17th century can relate to the 21st century. Salidin is not coming to Main Street Usa or Piccadilly circus. The comparison of Islam's violent beginnings does bear similarity to the birth of Christianity, embroiled in a violent low level contest with other Late Roman successor cults and a brutal repressive regime, being aquired as a state dept of Faith by Constantine and though military means, exstinguishing paganism and Greco-Roman polytheism.

Just as Islam became the tool of violent men in power (A depressingly reccuring characteristic in human sociology), as did Christianity. The destruction of the Northern pagans in the 14/15 c, Native Americans thoughout the conquistador period, Spanish moriscos in the 17th, Irish Catholics in the 17/18th. Remember that Christianity is the birthplace of anti-semetism, from Crusaders to Inquisistion to Luther to Dreyfrus. Does that mean as such that Christains are all instinctively belligerent aggressors intent on mass murder or conversion? Of course not, Humans are not made into monsters by faith alone and to paint a billion people as such is the same as declaring all Indians are BJP fascists and the entire Chinese nation, totalitarian murderers. It is a entirely false assumption and lazy stereotyping

Both Christainity and Islam rely on the creed of Absolute truth, one god, one prophet. Both condemn non-believers to horrible punishment, in this life or the next, both seek to convert the world to one homogenious dogma. They seek hegemon over sprituality. The difference in language between Koran and Gospel does not seem to have encourage divergant methods of achieving this.

As for coexistence, the intensification of religious tension within communities is undeniable. The destruction post 1948 of Jewish communities in moslem states (A tragic acompaniment to the near equal and opposite catastrophe of Palistine) and increasing tensions visavis the Christian community around the Islamic world are caused by a growth in identification with and the power of stringent islam, yet the more striking change lies in the abandonment of secular politics and social relationships. This is not purely a consequence of a fad of islamic puritanism, it is the result of huge changes disrupting in many cases centuries old multi-cultural and coexisting communities and societies. Super power (Including Colonial ones)interferance and a dramatic integration in the world market all put tensions on civic society. Into the vaccum has stroad in many instances, militant Sectarians. These forces, political, social, economical have created societies unsure and changing, strengthening the 'need for the other' and the certaincies of dogma.

As for the remark about the danger of Islamic take over through the use of an islamic minority, this is quite a flight of imagination. I live in Finsbury Park in London and given the sizeable Muslim community here, i would have though i might have noticed their battering rams or catapults, or Cruise missiles and Abrams, yet no, i just see a community getting on with its day to day life. Multi-Culturalism is not easy, it is not a matter of forms. It needs time and understanding, on both sides. The host culture will change as it include the new arrivals, if it is open and not aggressive, it will absorb and permiate back into the culture. This is of course utopian, but i would argue that real democracy is utopian, the path towards these goals is none the less worth travelling, the journey towards humanitarian ideas is the essential and right one.

As for the nihilistic and irrational Europeans, this comment recalls National eugenics of the 19th century and has shades of Kirche, Kinder, Kuche (my german like my spelling is awful). It appears to my ignorant eye to suggest 'If you can beat 'em, out breed 'em'. This betrays great concern for 'the white race' against those swarthy foreigners. All i can say is i disagree entirely and i apologize for not having bred more vigoriously.

As for Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, the threat to Rome is more from traffic than ravaging hordes. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but i think Yousef will be disappointed. His comment alone is not support for assuming an imminent threat to Italy or pan-Islamic thoughts of world domination. It does remind me of the promise in revelations, taken literally by many evangelical christians that all Jews would be finally converted and Jeruselem would transformed into a Christian Capital just in time for Big JC return. This, like Yousef's little rant, is religion asserting itself on the world via prophacy and like Historical materialism and Cylical history, they remain prophacy as the world doesn't act that way and makes fools of those who try to contain it.

A further interesting note is the similarity drawn between Mohammed and his concertrated group of Zealots and Al Qaida. This is rather odd given the vast differences between 7th century arabia and now, the power of mass action and mass organisation etc. Taking this model of an elite of professional acolytes dedicated to a spritual and political revolution reminds me of a Leninist Vanguard, dedicated to action and one aim. How odd after the 'end of history', revolutionaries of a similar narrow ideology have terrorised the world again. Al Qaida is not in any way a force of such power as to subsume stable nation states (or to distabalise established ones) on its own. That requires an domestic elite panic, kneejerk legistlation, corruption of democracy. Al Qaida are narrow pathetic souls, lost in their ideology, turned to evil deeds and vicious libel by the desperate logic of their delusion and the cold ruthless double think of global politics. They are not by themselves or their acts, a power to shake and shape the world. We can only allow them to change the world by our own reaction to their brutal acts. I am not an appeaser, my greatgrandfather died in Spain, fighting a global threat that would three years later would nearly destroy europe via brute force and mass murder, and my family keep his memory evergreen. But to twist our lives and disrupt everything to face off with a very effective organisation, capable of horrible acts of violence but not a threat to the survival of democracy in itself is entirely counter productive.

More alarmingly than these other remarks is the assertion that Muslims would applaud the victory of the Jihadists over the entire globe. Human decancy is not limited by your confessional, for those under shraria law, under the tyranny of Totalitarians, under brutal and corrupt paper democracies, the overwelming majority seek to live lives without blood on the streets and stiffingly prescibed behaviour. This is a human trait and one that remains strong even in the darkest of days. If Moslems are so anxious for such an outcome, where is the evidence that Christianity isn't seeking such a victory. The point remains, people, pious or otherwise, don't seek such totalities.

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

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fundamentalists be damned! [239 words]Donald OFeb 16, 2006 20:0835612
Re:somewhat twisted arguments [1150 words]StuartFeb 17, 2006 05:1235612
In response to Stuart's comments [527 words]slowtrainFeb 19, 2006 01:4435612
Response to commets by Donald O. [83 words]slowtrainFeb 19, 2006 02:0135612
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To Joe [486 words]FaridFeb 17, 2006 20:2435512
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To Sophie [232 words]M'Hamed CHETTALIFeb 15, 2006 06:1935460
Reply to Mr. CHETTALI. Here is the substantiated Information [1962 words]SophieFeb 18, 2006 11:5935460
Reply to Mr. CHETTALI: Here is more substantiated information [1761 words]SophieFeb 19, 2006 17:2635460
Withdraw from active posting [59 words]M'Hamed CHETTALIFeb 21, 2006 11:0835460
Report Only from 60 Years Ago? [138 words]Mike RamirezFeb 13, 2006 18:5635456
Moslem States Represent a Potential Threat to World Peace" [110 words]steven lFeb 13, 2006 17:5935450
2Abuse of Muslims in the West [234 words]Ferdinand Gajewski, PhDFeb 13, 2006 17:2035438
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bad comparison [55 words]brooklynbobFeb 13, 2006 22:5135438
Ferdinand Gajewski a typical academic [25 words]HarrakFeb 13, 2006 23:0835438
Murder isn't a protest - its a crime. [390 words]Logan BerryFeb 13, 2006 23:1135438
To Gajewski [150 words]Richard the Lion heartFeb 13, 2006 23:2435438
Non-Muslims Do Not Need To Observe Muslim Religious Laws [27 words]AnneMFeb 14, 2006 07:2035438
Add some books to your library [97 words]hrFeb 14, 2006 09:4635438
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PHD Talk [80 words]BobFeb 14, 2006 20:5735438
Free Speech [120 words]Ferdinand GajewskiFeb 16, 2006 23:1135438
response to Ferdinand Gajewski [428 words]SiddaFeb 17, 2006 12:0535438
Isn't your PhD in music theory Mr. Gajewski? [7 words]FerdinandMay 9, 2006 15:0835438
The truth is Not abuse. [231 words]williamOct 23, 2006 09:1035438
The Misconceptions [84 words]Bryan JacksonFeb 13, 2006 16:5835431
A gathering threat [176 words]Richard the Lion heartFeb 13, 2006 15:5535417
note Richard the Lion heart comment [158 words]HarrakFeb 13, 2006 17:5335417
lighten the world [83 words]JOHN MANITTAFeb 13, 2006 15:4835415
You are wrong [47 words]Arvind MadhavanFeb 13, 2006 20:4335415
THE REAL THREAT TO WORLD SECURITY [194 words]HarrakFeb 13, 2006 15:4235413
historical thought [83 words]Dr. Charles SolomonFeb 13, 2006 14:5935407
The thought police [272 words]Gabriel GrossoFeb 13, 2006 14:5535405
Another blast from the past! [191 words]Janet AnnFeb 13, 2006 14:4635403
What's wrong with unit [111 words]M'Hamed CHETTALIFeb 14, 2006 07:3635403
Refreshing water [38 words]David W. LincolnFeb 13, 2006 12:4735389
Call Me Crazy... [232 words]Liz WagnerFeb 13, 2006 12:4535388
The Germans are the Key [317 words]Lee D. CaryFeb 13, 2006 12:1735385
re: The Germans are the key [15 words]Brian MoskowitzFeb 13, 2006 17:0435385
A Muslim baby "boon" [105 words]pigfootFeb 13, 2006 11:4235379
To pigfoot.. [89 words]ShockedJun 3, 2006 15:3535379
For Shocked: Islam and Muslims are misunderstood? You are kidding me [15 words]dhimmi no moreJun 4, 2006 16:1935379
Islam's contribution to global conditions [183 words]Michael KurtzigFeb 13, 2006 11:2735376
answer to Michael: Islam's contribution to global conditions [284 words]PaganFeb 13, 2006 23:3235376
Yes, Muslim countries lost scientific grounds [186 words]M'Hamed CHETTALIFeb 14, 2006 09:4635376
RE:M'Hamed CHETTALI [195 words]WeAreAllDanes!Feb 15, 2006 01:1035376
Response to AllDanes [327 words]M'Hamed CHETTALIFeb 15, 2006 04:3635376
RE:CHETTALI [361 words]WeAreAllDanes!Feb 15, 2006 19:5135376
Islam contribution to science [305 words]M'Hamed CHETTALIFeb 16, 2006 04:2035376
RE:CHETTALLI [129 words]WeAreAllDanes!Feb 16, 2006 21:0735376
Islam contribution against AIDS [72 words]EthicaMay 24, 2007 03:5735376
NOT ON THIS ARTICLE [130 words][Professor] Geoffrey LewisFeb 13, 2006 11:1335374
Joking Cousin [235 words]M'Hamed CHETTALIFeb 14, 2006 04:1835374
4Sir Winston Churchill knew Muslims ... [218 words]Donna SummerFeb 13, 2006 10:5235370
Wrong [77 words]Chris BellFeb 16, 2006 04:0835370
Ah yes Winston Churchill [109 words]Bader SFeb 16, 2006 16:0835370
And your point is your wisdom comes from rock&roll lyrics? [40 words]PDMFeb 21, 2006 02:2435370
reply to Mr. Churchill's speech and to all the nonmuslim brothers and sisters [256 words]mariaOct 4, 2007 20:1435370
Notice Absence of "Moderate Muslim" in the Reoprt [84 words]JaladhiFeb 13, 2006 10:4835367
Living in a fantasy world: How Muslims cope with reality [287 words]Dr RJPFeb 13, 2006 10:3035365
Shots Of Taqiyya And Fear [139 words]orange yonasonFeb 13, 2006 16:4835365
TO RJB [402 words]MohamedFeb 22, 2006 06:5135365
Descriptive but not analytical [303 words]M'Hamed CHETTALIFeb 13, 2006 10:2935364
Wolf and lamb [128 words]G.BisvasFeb 13, 2006 15:5935364
Muslim Threat to World Stability [238 words]Carol DFeb 13, 2006 10:1835363
in the name of GOD [91 words]asmaaDec 4, 2007 05:1035363
How our language has changed [291 words]Gabriel GrossoFeb 13, 2006 10:1635362
good,.. but [175 words]VijayFeb 13, 2006 10:1635361
Why the disregard? [218 words]Yehuda Ben-AsherFeb 13, 2006 09:5035359
"Moslem States Represent a Potential Threat to World Peace" [131 words]TED MATTHEWSFeb 13, 2006 08:5935353
Significant [210 words]HilareFeb 13, 2006 08:5635352
"Moslem States Represent a Potential Threat to World Peace" [56 words]PhillipFeb 13, 2006 08:5135351

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