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La Gitana

Reader comment on item: Something Rotten in Denmark?
in response to reader comment: response to la gitana

Submitted by Sword of Islam (United Kingdom), Feb 9, 2006 at 21:37

I read your comments with interest as they are the first structured response that has emerged in defence of the current 'stand-off'.

If you troll through the postings that constitute this debate you will find an utter lack of a coherent response in defence of the extremist reaction to these cartoons. It has taken extremist comments from the opposing view to provoke the minimum of stimulating debate. I believe it to be the only currency in such a situation. Your response is a vindication of that belief.

The whole point of the cartoon issue is that the subject matter is a Holy Cow. As a secular society (or one that is striving to be) why should it be that that the only religion that is 'off-limits' as regards satire is Islam? Any society whose choices are determined by fear cannot be said to be free. Bad taste is not a crime. Causing offence is not a virtue. But if fear is the only motivation to prevent bad taste and cause offence then there is something very wrong indeed.

But, insofar as this debate is concerned, the fact of the matter is that these cartoons were published in September 2005. The lack of a public outcry was deafening. The imams in Denmark had no support for their campaign. Then they 'added' some cartoons of their own and canvassed Middle Eastern states for support. They 'falsified' the evidence to include pictures of The Prophet engaged in acts of beastiality and as half man/half pig - passing these forgeries off as having been published in the newspaper. With the greatest of respect to the Danish press the Jyllands-Posten does not have the same international circulation as, say, the New York Times so these forgeries were not questioned. Then came the outcry from the Muslim world. Three months later. Then more falsehoods were added to the equation - the Danes were going to 'burn the Koran' in retaliation against these protests (obviously untrue) - serving to escalate this violence.

Freedom of speech is therefore less of an issue in this case than might otherwise be assumed. These facts are all verifiable. Just Google them.

Why should Spain be returned to the Arabs? It has never been an Arab country. If there is any justification for such a thing then I take it that the occupation of a country gives sufficient grounds for ownership - possession being nine-tenths of the law? Does Arabia actually exist anymore? Not on my map. Presumably then, you will then concede the point that as the UN occupied Palestine after the war it was legitimate for them to grant the lands that make up the state of Israel. Sorry, but you shot yourself in the foot with that example!

As an argument it is particularly weak as the talking point revolves around states that already exist rather than states that are hypothetically being proposed. Does the fact that that Israel is just over 50 years old make it any less legitimate than, say, a state that is 100 years old? Is a state that is 200 years old more legitimate than a state that is 100 years old? I'd be interested to know where you draw the line. Presumably the surrounding states, that are barely older themselves, in terms of international borders, are equally illegitimate. Be consistent. Again we have a list of 'crimes' but precious little in the way of solutions or suggestions. Either you concur that the state of Israel has a right to exist (unlikely, given your shopping list) or you believe that it shouldn't be there. If the latter is true, what do you suggest that we do with it? Or do you fall into neither camp - in which case, why make the point? Or are you just one of those guys that one occasionally sees shouting at traffic in the street? 'Full of sound and fury - signifying nothing'.

Hopefully, now that Hamas is a government rather than a terrorist organisation we will see more 'jaw, jaw' and less 'war, war' - its not likely but neither is it impossible. The negotiation table is the only way that the Palestinian issue will be resolved. The Israelis are hardly going to withdraw at gunpoint. Any blame for this situation must rest with the neighbouring states who tried to invade Israel in the Sixties. They had their 'arses kicked' and Israel grabbed some extra territory as compensation. In any other region the displaced population (and we're not talking about a lot of people here) would have been absorbed by the adjacent Arab states. Not there. The result? Impasse! The Arabs don't want them and the Jews don't want them.

I have complete conviction that as soon as the the gun or suicide bomber is removed from the equation the ball will start rolling. The death of Arafat, and his unique ability to 'snatch defeat from the jaws of victory', was a massive step forward in the Palestinian cause. I cross my fingers and hope that the UN will get it's act together and achieve something positive for once rather than exist purely as a 'talking shop'.

Palestine is convenient clarion call for every petty dictator in the region but I sincerely hope that once we do resolve it (fingers crossed) we do not see the goalposts shift and a resumption of the ideaology that questions the right of the state of Israel to actually exist. The rhetoric of the Iranians and the attempt to whip up support for the eradication of Israel does not inspire hope.

I think that the use of the Palestine issue in political discussion actually means 'different things to different people'. To some it means the withdrawal of the Israelis from the territories that they have occupied since 1967 (territories won during the failed invasion) and to others the removal of the state as a whole. A very muddy issue and one that I am not entirely sure is understood by the world at large.

"Why is so difficult to accept that other societies and cultures have different criterion and that we have to impose on them a Western style democracy"

For the same reasons, it would seem, as that the components of these societies have for leaving these cultures and their inability to integrate into our social model without trying to alter the model in their favour.

The fact that the Iranians preferred the idea of an Ayatollah is obvious. Whether the subsequent reality corresponds to the dream is something only they can answer. Im not sure how relevant that point is given that the issue relates more to whether Iran is helpful, indifferent or harmful to the interests of the outside world. Perhaps you know more than the rest of us? Perhaps you can explain the facts explaining the vast discrepancy in the numbers migrating from this region to the West and those migrating in the other direction? As a benchmark of popuIarity it is the only measurement that we have.

don't think it is any great co-incidence that the largest immigrant populations coming to the UK, well before the recent wars, were from Iraq and Afghanistan. Purely coincidental? Hardly a point that supports your argument in this case. Many puppet regimes have been installed and supported in varying countries by agents of the West. Would you say that these form a majority in overall 'despot numbers' or a minority. Do you seriously believe that 'the people' have any say over their 'choice' of dicator?

It is incredibly easy to rant against history. It doesn't achieve a great deal. It actual fact it exacerbates such flash points. If the assumption of historical guilt is applied to the world as a whole for real or imagined crimes there isn't a society on the planet that stands blameless. It is precisely this kind of intellectual guilt that hamstrings modern society and anchors it in the past making it impotent in dealing with the troubles that it imports. Troubles that are current. These incursions into our social model are tolerated when they are seen as invisible but when threats, real or imagined, to our social model are so high profile a backlash becomes inevitable and the longer hostility simmers below the surface in the West the more widespread it will become and the bigger the explosion will be when it comes. This is true of pretty much every socity on the planet. As a European I am affected by the European manifestation of this human phenomenon. Kosovo was a warning of this. Do you imagine that events such as those that have occurred make the likelihood of our intervention in 'rogue' states more or less likely?

If we cannot ensure harmony in the West with those who flee these states then the only logical method of 'fixing' the problem is by 'fixing' the source of the problem. I'm not saying that I advocate such action, I actually dread it, but the longer this situation goes on the more likely I see such action as being. If a conflict kicked off between the West and Iran, for example, and the first casuality would obviously be Iraq. It is primed for iinvasion given the vacuum that presently exists there. The idea of 10 million Iranian jihadis descending upon the approximately 6000 British troops in the South of Iraq does not give me a hard-on.

Do you have actually anything to say to help 'deal' with the situation rather than taking the easy route and generalising about current events and getting specific only with historical issues?

Or are you too comfortable sitting on the fence and urinating on both sides of the debate. Be a man and pick a side. Any side. I am sorry that you have been a victim of history and politics. But find me a family on the planet whose genealogy hasn't been touched by this at some point. Religion is generally involved somewhere along the line ( at least it has in every century up until the last) so you will forgive me if I have no time or tolerence for any state or group of people whose belief encroaches upon the secular society steeped in the blood of my ancestors. The American Indian was not helped by those who fled Europe in search of sanctuary from Christian Fundamentalism - the birth of which was assisted in no small way by the Inquisition and it's attempts to eradicate any remnant of the invasion Europe by The Moors.

Furthermore, the implied racism that you apply to these views is, in and of itself, racist. My ancestors had no involvement with any of the events that you describe. Why then should I allow myself to be hamstrung by 'white guilt'? My world is being threatened by alien values. I resent it. Historical knowledge is a fuel to such resentment. The erosion of established values by an external force in a 'civilised' society invariably leads to the downfall of such society. This is a classic example of a situation where 'ignorance is bliss' - I truly wish I were as I would have fewer sleepless nights and spend my free time far more productively!

As an alien myself, my parents emigrated from the Republic of Ireland to the UK in the 70's. I therefore have no problem with immigrants in terms of skin colour or personal creed - as long as these creeds do not destabilise the status quo that so many died to protect (in defiance of at least one of the crimes that you attribute to Europe as a whole). As an Irish man I can tell stories of British imperialism - of massacres, discrimination and injustices. However, do you suggest that I should simmer with hatred for these past crimes? Or the discrimination that my parents suffered with their thick Irish accents (the only giveaway to their nationality) and being regarded as 'less' than their British counterparts - despite being physically indistinguishable from the 'natives'? Of course not.

I was raised in the UK and my historical 'baggage' simply means that I do not take the image of Empire at face value. Should I seek to undermine the society that has given me my education and lifestyle in revenge for the persecution of my ancestors and the eradication of their national language? What would it achieve? And therein lies the point. My parents emigrated to the UK and INTEGRATED. If you examined my life in detail you would my nationality indistinguishable from that of any other English man. Without sacrificing anything that compromises my cultural identity. If I, or my parents, couldn't do that we wouldn't be here.

Given your assertion that the societies whom you advocate as having the right to self determination simply have alternative values that the unenlightened such as myself cannot understand you presumably also believe that those who flee these regimes cannot have legitimate cause for asylum and are by definition criminal. Therefore, as criminals you presumably support the idea of mass deportation and repatriation of these people - given that these states aren't as bad as the ignorant believe.

That's a bit right-wing for me, La Gitana. Maybe we could repatriate them to France - they should fit in there but I'd much rather give them a choice in the matter. Embrace our values or embrace Islamic values. If you want to embrace our values you are more than welcome as our diminishing population growth means that we NEED you. If you don't want to embrace our values why not try and help the people who share your philosophy to build a truly Islamic society. But you can't have it both ways. You don't have to compromise your beliefs but I'll be damned if we're going to abandon ours. The millions who have died to evolve this society to where it is mmay be silent but it doesn't make their sacrifice one that all of us are going to forget. I thank them every day for the fact that my generation has not faced forced conscription for war and I pray that my descendants will retain that respect for them.

And therein lies the point....
Submitting....

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1Are Tamil Tigers Muslims? [40 words]Deepali ChowdhuryAug 15, 2006 10:2345986
It's simple. Please don't try to deny reality. [86 words]JustMeAug 20, 2006 00:1145986
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For Danish American: TERRORISM [393 words]J DSep 21, 2006 08:5545986
JD...thanks for the links [299 words]Danish/AmericanSep 21, 2006 22:3445986
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The Fiction on Library of Alexander [471 words]EgeMar 19, 2007 19:3345986
to Deepali [76 words]ASJun 20, 2007 16:3645986
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Have I read the Koran? [255 words]Linda FreedmanOct 3, 2006 15:1945863
MAYBE you do.. [224 words]ariezOct 3, 2006 21:0945863
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What the "true islam" is why it has "NO ASSET to reform" [229 words]Mohammad JabbarNov 16, 2007 00:1645863
1Danish/American & JustMe: Keep Fighting The Good Fight! [96 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanMay 17, 2006 19:1345834
Abu Qatada: Begging to stay in Britain [244 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanMay 9, 2006 14:5845124
Sword...they have no real power [168 words]Danish/AmericanMay 10, 2006 10:0045124
Weasles [68 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanMay 10, 2006 15:2245124
They kill each other [31 words]Danish/AmericanMay 10, 2006 17:3645124
2British Traditions [75 words]Khalid KhanMar 31, 2010 03:5345124
Begging Bowl [95 words]Sword of IslamApr 1, 2010 08:0145124
Primitive [92 words]Sword of IslamApr 2, 2010 12:1245124
1Sweeden just love Hamas [31 words]BobApr 27, 2006 17:5044360
4more from Sweden [378 words]Danish/AmericanApr 29, 2006 16:1444360
Sweden [53 words]Bombs of America & Babies of IraqApr 29, 2006 17:0744360
I predict a riot [264 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 30, 2006 05:4944360
Living with the enemy [341 words]JustMeApr 30, 2006 09:3844360
Bombs of America & Babies of Iraq [28 words]Danish/AmericanMay 1, 2006 01:1144360
Disgusting entertainment. [375 words]Danish/AmericanMay 1, 2006 09:4944360
Name the enemy or just keep fighting in vacuum [38 words]JaladhiMay 1, 2006 13:5944360
1Danish/American [112 words]JustMeMay 1, 2006 16:0944360
JustMe..sect for serial killers [58 words]Danish/AmericanMay 2, 2006 08:3744360
Iran..big talk for a bunch of cowardly fanatics [162 words]Danish/AmericanMay 2, 2006 16:3044360
How to handle a maniac [126 words]JustMeMay 3, 2006 15:5444360
Love Hamas? [192 words]Dansih/AmericanMay 3, 2006 20:2344360
Disgusting entertainment!Danish/american [143 words]mandyMay 7, 2006 06:0744360
learn from history [95 words]hSep 19, 2006 21:4144360
To Anonymous: I'm back [75 words]ArmgeddonApr 24, 2006 20:1744056
Armgeddon,..the atrocities keep coming daily [399 words]Danish/AmericanApr 25, 2006 19:1944056
1To Danish/American [177 words]JaladhiApr 27, 2006 13:5944056
Muslims in Europe [52 words]RogerSep 20, 2006 11:4544056
Simple question about Mussaui's trial outcome [100 words]Innocent and curiousApr 12, 2006 01:4443001
For Innocent and curious, answers to your questions (and I'm curious too) [225 words]AnonymousApr 12, 2006 05:1143001
1for innocent and curious [271 words]MuslimApr 12, 2006 05:2643001
Innocent and curious, in re: Zacarias Moussaoui [191 words]JustMeApr 12, 2006 21:2243001
Vote for a murderer? Good question, Anonymous! [162 words]JustMeApr 14, 2006 13:1043001
Sword of Islam: Muslims/Jews [101 words]JustMeApr 18, 2006 15:4543001
JustMe..thank you so much! [55 words]Danish/AmericanApr 18, 2006 16:4043001
JustMe [41 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 18, 2006 16:4043001
Moussaoui : Is lunacy his only defence? [57 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 18, 2006 20:3243001
Insanity defense [99 words]JustMeApr 19, 2006 15:5643001
Never forget [252 words]JustMeApr 20, 2006 15:2543001
JustMe: United we stand, divided they fall [444 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 21, 2006 15:3643001
Sword, in re: bravehearts [123 words]JustMeApr 22, 2006 01:0543001
Sword, JustMe and Mandy..someone finally has the backbone to stand up to these aggressors. [297 words]Danish/AmericanApr 25, 2006 23:4643001
1Danish/American Re At last someone with backbone! [241 words]MandyApr 26, 2006 05:5243001
Mandy..you're not the only one disappointed. [185 words]Danish/AmericanApr 26, 2006 19:1543001
Mussaui [34 words]RedMountainHighApr 30, 2006 17:0543001
Moussaoui ... [98 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 30, 2006 18:0543001
Zacarias Moussaoui [97 words]JustMeApr 30, 2006 21:1943001
RE: for innocent and curious [40 words]Solan GundersenJan 23, 2010 17:1543001
Will the Real Sword of Islam please stand up! Morteza read, rhetoric of hate, instigating bigotry, deliberate lies, fake Sword exposed. [4851 words]Sword of TruthApr 11, 2006 12:1742922
Sword of Truth, you did a great job!!!! [123 words]AnonymousApr 11, 2006 16:4242922
Sword of Truth, THANK YOU!!! [157 words]The Real Sword of IslamApr 11, 2006 18:0842922
true [81 words]RonnieApr 11, 2006 19:0142922
My fan club appears to be growing! [312 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 12, 2006 04:4342922
The Plastic Sword of Islam: Delusional [61 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 12, 2006 04:5042922
Ronnie [186 words]JustMeApr 12, 2006 11:3742922
Anonymous [13 words]JustMeApr 12, 2006 11:4142922
Yes JustMe [134 words]MuslimApr 12, 2006 17:4042922
The things we do for peace! [10750 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 12, 2006 18:1342922
The things we do for peace! [29 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 13, 2006 14:5242922
JustMe: Solidarity [122 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 13, 2006 15:2942922
Ronnie [31 words]Danish/AmericanApr 13, 2006 16:5442922
Justme [77 words]AnonymousApr 14, 2006 11:1742922
Muslim [106 words]JustMeApr 14, 2006 12:2642922
Sword of Truth, in re: Truth? [433 words]JustMeApr 15, 2006 13:3442922
Unity with eyes wide open [155 words]JustMeApr 15, 2006 23:1842922
Anonymous - [182 words]PCMadnessApr 17, 2006 21:3242922
2Anonymous, you call this compassion? [148 words]JustMeApr 18, 2006 12:4342922
The list has grown since then [52 words]fersusFeb 28, 2012 18:2142922
JustMe-Danish/American [186 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 8, 2006 19:1542747
2The Danish role during WW2..for those who don't know. [178 words]Danish/AmericanApr 10, 2006 07:2542747
Life is not just about potatoes and gravy... [538 words]SammyApr 5, 2006 19:0242487
Sammy ... [226 words]Sword of IslamApr 6, 2006 19:1642487
Sword of Islam [559 words]SammyApr 7, 2006 20:4642487
Goodbye, Sammy. [220 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 8, 2006 19:0442487
How Typical. [211 words]SammyApr 10, 2006 06:0042487
Sammy..question [208 words]Danish/AmericanApr 10, 2006 15:0242487
Sammy: Get Over It! [193 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 10, 2006 17:1342487
Answer for Danish/American [432 words]SammyApr 10, 2006 17:1342487
Danish/American, what is rotten in Denmark? [356 words]Adib FarakishApr 11, 2006 17:2142487
Sammy [531 words]Danish/AmericanApr 11, 2006 21:0942487
Adib Farakish [367 words]Danish/AmericanApr 12, 2006 06:3642487
" What are the little boys made of?" [268 words]Innocent MumApr 12, 2006 09:1842487
DanishAmerican [293 words]SammyApr 12, 2006 15:1242487
Danish/American [241 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 12, 2006 17:4642487
Sammy.. [363 words]Danish/AmericanApr 12, 2006 21:0242487
Innocent Mum [316 words]Danish/AmericanApr 12, 2006 21:1542487
For Danish/American regarding the Puppets [389 words]Adib FarakishApr 13, 2006 13:5042487
Sword of Islam & The Babies of Beslan on Sammy [27 words]Danish/AmericanApr 13, 2006 15:1842487
Sword of Beid and DanishAmerican [26 words]SammyApr 13, 2006 15:5242487
Sword and Danish/American - Rules of Engagement (Sammy Style) [208 words]JustMeApr 15, 2006 16:3742487
Adib Farakish [102 words]Danish/AmericanApr 16, 2006 00:5942487
Adib ... Now wash your hands! [382 words]PCMadnessApr 16, 2006 21:4242487
JustMe..Sammy style [65 words]Danish/AmericanApr 16, 2006 22:0742487
PC MadnessRe Adib [212 words]MandyApr 17, 2006 05:5942487
Sins of the flesh..... [151 words]PCMadnessApr 18, 2006 16:1842487
Of truth and playboy [357 words]nameApr 19, 2006 07:0342487
name [314 words]Danish/AmericanApr 19, 2006 15:5342487
Danish/American - lol [135 words]JustMeApr 19, 2006 16:1442487
name or no name.... it's rubbish! [1105 words]PCMadnessApr 19, 2006 16:5442487
name [248 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 19, 2006 17:2242487
Othello vs 'name' [190 words]Sword of Islam & The Babies of BeslanApr 19, 2006 19:2942487
Name Re Nudity in the West. [209 words]MandyApr 20, 2006 10:1942487
Nudists everywhere!! [64 words]JustMeApr 20, 2006 16:1342487
is this a rosie or oprah site ? [79 words]ronJun 30, 2007 17:2742487

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