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Part 1 reply to iasius

Reader comment on item: Bush Declares War on Radical Islam
in response to reader comment: Comments on Iasius statements

Submitted by Allonehhob (Canada), Nov 5, 2005 at 19:25

When you say "that it is ONLY the bible that says Christ came with a message of peace," and yet you quote from the same bible to claim that Christ came with a militant agenda. Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Obviously, you haven't read the contents of what was linked in my previous reply answering Muslims claim about linking Christ to violence http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/Arlandson/sword2.htm, Please read carefully before you jump into a different verse in the bible.

But, maybe because there is too much information for you to understand, so I have summarized and shortened the explanation. Also, to make my replies simple for you, I will send you part 2 to answer your many arguments.

The context needs to be quoted in full (Luke 22:35-38), you have obviously picked part of it in your previous statement, I guess you thought that this will make your argument more convincing.

Luke 22:36
35 [Jesus] asked them [the eleven apostles], "When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
They said, "No, not a thing."
36 He said to them, "But now the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 37 For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered among the lawless'; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled."
38 They [the disciples] said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"It is enough," he replied.

Lets examine the historical context of Luke 22:36. For three years Jesus avoided making a public, triumphal entry of his visits to Jerusalem because he understood that when he set foot in the holy city in this way, he would fulfill his mission to die, in a death that looked like one of a common criminal, just as Isaiah the prophet had predicted hundreds of years before (Isaiah 53:12). He needed to complete his work outside of Jerusalem. Now, however, Jesus finally enters it a few days before his arrest, trial and crucifixion, all of which he predicted. Religious leaders were spying on him (Luke 20:20) and asked him trick questions, so they could incriminate him. These insincere questions, though they were also asked before he entered the city, increased in frequency during these compacted tense days. But he answered impressively, avoiding their traps. Despite the tension, each day Jesus taught in the temple, and crowds gathered around him, so the authorities could not arrest him, for fear of the people. Judas volunteered to betray him, saying that he would report back to the authorities when no crowd was present (Luke 22:1-6).
As Passover drew near, Jesus asked some of his disciples to prepare the Last Supper. During the meal, Judas slipped out to search for the authorities because he knew that it was the custom of Jesus to go to the Mount of Olives to pray (Luke 21:37), and that night would be no different.
He is eating the supper on the night he was betrayed. This literary context reveals four truths.
First, at this time only eleven apostles were present since Judas slipped away to betray Jesus.
Second, Jesus contrasts his ministry before his arrival in Jerusalem with the tense few days in Jerusalem when spies and the authorities themselves were seeking to trap him. But does the tension play a part in understanding why he told his disciples to go out and buy swords? This is answered, below.

Third, he says that he would be arrested and tried as a criminal, as the prophecy in Isaiah 53:12 predicted. Does this have anything to do with swords? Do criminals carry them around? This too is explained, below.

Finally, the words "it is enough" can either be a statement (as it is translated here), or it can be a command: "That's enough!" That is, "Put away your swords! You're taking my words too literally!" But regardless of the translation, Jesus clearly has a deeper meaning in mind than the physical swords. What is it?

The interpretation of the verse can either follow a literal direction (Jesus intended to fight with swords) or a nonliteral direction (Jesus is using physicals sword to convey a deeper meaning). The surest and clearest direction is the nonliteral one, but first we analyze why the literal one will not fit into Luke 22:34-38 and in the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus was arrested (Luke 22:39-53).
The first direction, the literal one, is inadequate for four reasons, based on v. 38, which says that two swords are enough.
First, the obvious question is: two swords are enough for what? In Luke 22:35-36, in Jerusalem and at the last meal, Jesus tells his disciples that they should get their purses and bags and bring them with them. Did he tell them to buy a sword to defend their possessions? This is the "self-defense" or the "defense of one's property" explanation of the swords. At first glance, this explanation has some plausibility, if we were to take only vv. 35-36 out of context. In reply, though, how much money do these eleven apostles have at this time? We do not know, but it was probably not large. But even if it were, Jesus and his new movement (as sociologists of the New Testament call it) received the goodwill offering of some followers, and Luke even names some women supporters (8:4). But Jesus saw no need to protect the money with swords at this time. But did not the last few days in Jerusalem have more tension than his three years outside of Jerusalem? The tension was indeed compacted into a few days, but Jesus frequently had to answer the antagonistic questions of his opponents before his entry into Jerusalem, so his three years was certainly not peaceful all of the time; yet he did not protect the money with swords. And this brings us back to the number of swords that Peter shows Jesus during the last meal. Would two swords be enough to protect the contents of the purses and bags that Jesus now says the disciples should bring with them? No, so clearly the two weapons serve a nonliteral purpose, for the "self-defense" explanation does not fit into the entire context.

Second, if self-defense does not work with the disciples' property, does it work during the arrest of Jesus that night in the Garden of Gethsemane? Are two swords enough for a physical fight to resist arrest? This is hardly the case because during Jesus' arrest a disciple (Peter according to John 18:10) took out his sword and cut off the ear of the servant of the high priest (Malchus according to John 18:10). Jesus sternly tells Peter to put away his sword, "No more of this!" and then he heals the servant, restoring his ear (Luke 22:49-51). Resisting arrest cannot be the purpose of the two swords.

Third, were the two swords enough for an armed rebellion to resist the authorities and impose the new Jesus movement in a political and military way? Jesus denounces this purpose in Luke 22:52, as the authorities were in the process of arresting him: "Am I leading a rebellion that you have come with swords and clubs?" (New International Version). The answer is no, as he is seized and led away (22:54). Since this literal interpretation will not work, Jesus intended to teach a deeper meaning than a physical fight with only two physical swords.

Fourth and finally, within two or three decades after the Resurrection (and more), we have no record of the disciples wielding swords. For example, Paul sent Titus, his fellow-worker, with a large offering to Corinth, with the goal of collecting even more money from the Corinthian Christians (2 Cor. 8-9). After that, he and some "brothers" were to transport the money to the church in Jerusalem, which had fallen on hard times. In all of the long distances that the money traveled, there is simply no indication that Titus and the "brothers" protected it with swords. And this is true for other Christian offerings that circulated around the Mediterranean world. In addition, throughout the Book of Acts, which was written by Luke and which depicts Paul and his companions getting beaten and stoned and arrested by the local authorities and some religious opposition, he never defends himself or retaliates with a sword. He is following the example of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. Violence plays no part in the life of the early church. Swords were never envisioned to be swung by the disciples as if the true God would call them to go forth as a military army to kill pagans or force Jews to convert, die, or pay a special tax if they do not convert (Sura 9:1-5; 29).

So the literal interpretation of the two swords will not work in the larger context of Luke 22:36. In contrast to the literal interpretation, the three following nonliteral interpretations work smoothly in context so that all the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

First, as noted, Jesus reminds the disciples of his mission for them before he arrived in Jerusalem (Luke 9:3; 10:1-17). Did they need a purse, a bag, or extra sandals? No, because people were friendlier, and his opposition was spread out over three years.

Now, however, he is in Jerusalem, and he has undergone the compacted antagonism of religious leaders seeking to trap him with self-incriminating words. In addition, when the authorities are not present, they send their spies. The atmosphere is therefore tense, and the two swords—no more than that—symbolize the tension. Jesus' mission has shifted to a clear danger, and the disciples must take note. However, he certainly did not intend for his disciples to use the swords, as we just saw in the literal interpretation, above, for he is about to tell Peter to put away his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane. But the swords symbolizing tension fits perfectly into the context of Luke 22:36.

Second, by far the clearest purpose of the symbolism of two swords is found in 22:36-37, when Jesus refers to Isaiah's prophecy (53:12) about being numbered with the lawless in the context of swords. He was destined to be falsely arrested like a criminal, falsely put on trial like a criminal, and even falsely crucified like a criminal. After all, he was hung on the cross between two thieves, which is a further fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy (Luke 23:32; 39-43). What are criminals known for carrying with them? Weapons, and to be numbered with them Jesus must also have weapons. That is why he said that only two swords would be enough—to fulfill this prophecy in a symbolic way.

A little knowledge of the basics of first-century Greek, the original language of the New Testament, clarifies this interpretation. The Greek word gar (the first word in v. 37, above) means for, whose function and meaning is to explain the preceding clause. Here is an example in English: "I am bringing an umbrella, for it is raining." So the word for explains why I am bringing an umbrella: it is raining. This often works in New Testament Greek, as well. In v. 36 Jesus tells the disciples to buy a sword: "And the one who has no sword must go out and buy one." Why? Jesus explains in the next clause: "For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me" (v. 37). The use of swords outside of official and legal authority represents criminal behavior. Thus, Jesus wants to identify with common criminals as predicted by Isaiah, and two swords alone would suffice. However, Jesus would not let them be used when the time came for his arrest, for he was really not a criminal, but to use them would mean that he would become one; plus, he was destined to die as he himself predicted (Luke 18:31-33). So he immediately stops Peter's misuse of his sword: "No more of this!" (Luke 22:51). Peter or any follower of Jesus must not use swords to maim or kill sinners, unbelievers, or anyone else.

The third and final symbolic interpretation presents itself in addition to Isaiah's prophecy and the tense atmosphere in Jerusalem. Jesus frequently used physical objects (seeds, lamps, vineyards, coins, lost sheep and so on) to teach nonphysical, universal truths, and the same is true with the two swords in this passage. Though Luke 22:36 is not a parable, Jesus is about to instruct the disciples, using two physical swords, on how not to behave when they go out into the highways preaching the gospel after his Resurrection. They will not need swords when Jesus is arrested, and they will not need them even if they suffer persecution later on. Hence, the physical swords teach this nonphysical and universal truth based on Jesus telling Peter to put away his sword in the Garden during Jesus' arrest: no violence should be used to spread the word of the true God. Later tradition supports this interpretation, saying that all of the original apostles but John were martyred as a direct result of persecution (John died from natural causes of old age, but he was imprisoned for his faith on the Island of Patmos), but none of them fought or even tried to fight his way out of his fiery trials with swords. Evidently, the example of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane made an impression on them. To repeat, that is the message of Jesus when he tells Peter in the Garden, "No more of this!" That is, "Never use a sword again!"
As noted, the early history of the church supports this symbolic meaning of swords in Luke 22:36 in its larger context. In the Book of Acts, which records some of the history of the church after the Resurrection, the disciples never swing a sword. Bloody warfare is excluded as they spread the message of the kingdom of God, throughout the larger Mediterranean world by peaceful proclamation alone.

To sum up, the three symbolic interpretations fit together in both the historical and literary contexts of Luke 22:36. Jesus says that two swords are enough, but clearly they are not sufficient for a physical fight in the Garden of Gethsemane or anywhere else. They are enough, however, to do three symbolic things. First, they embody the tension of Jesus' last days in Jerusalem. Second, they complement Jesus' fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy that he would be numbered among criminals. A mere two swords would nicely fill out the picture of this prophecy, since criminals carried weapons with them. Third, they are enough for Jesus to rebuke Peter when he swings one of them and cuts off Malchus' ear. Therefore, Jesus uses them as object lessons that the disciples should follow his example and not use swords—they must never swing them to bring about the kingdom of God by a holy war, even in the direst moment of Jesus' life, his arrest in the Garden.

Peter interpreted Jesus' words literally, but he was wrong, so Jesus rebuked him. Therefore, we should avoid the same mistaken literal interpretation of "sword" in Luke 22:36, so that we may not receive the same rebuke.

In the Gospel of Matthew's account of the events in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus rebuked Peter, after Peter struck the ear off the servant of the high priest:
26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?" (NIV)
These two verses agree with Luke's account and add some details. Jesus denounces violence to accomplish the will of God.

Peace be with you
Submitting....

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Jaladhi's, Michael Glass', J Force's comments [10 words]Ready TeddyOct 14, 2005 16:3526953
Test for Muslims [74 words]WalterOct 14, 2005 14:1526950
Racism In Islam [138 words]YovenOct 14, 2005 13:1426946
Black Racism in islam [172 words]non arabOct 14, 2009 02:5526946
Bush Declares War on Radical Islam [70 words]I.D. BradleyOct 14, 2005 11:2726944
Radical Distinction? [398 words]ShlomoOct 14, 2005 01:1626932
The fear in the heart of the Americans [184 words]f. shawkiOct 13, 2005 23:0226928
Comments of F. Shawki [109 words]JaladhiOct 14, 2005 09:2726928
multi-headed hydra [234 words]Arnie FishmanOct 13, 2005 20:0026920
Bush Declares War on Radical Islam [323 words]Maurice PicowOct 13, 2005 17:0926916
Wars are violent conflicts between governments. [182 words]Ralph C Whaley MDOct 13, 2005 16:3926914
What's missing [216 words]yuval Brandstetter MDOct 13, 2005 14:5326910
Well done Mr. Pipes, but one could be even more specific [420 words]AriOct 13, 2005 11:2026901
Also.. [7 words]Mohammed Saleem AkhtarOct 12, 2005 23:1126892
Radical Islam [75 words]Mohammaed Saleem AkhtarOct 12, 2005 23:0426891
response to mr akhtar [288 words]garyOct 14, 2005 22:0526891
Mohammed Saleem Akhtar [379 words]WalterOct 15, 2005 00:2626891
Gary and Walter [391 words]Mohammed Saleem AkhtarOct 15, 2005 01:2526891
Walter [178 words]Mohammed Saleem AkhtarOct 15, 2005 01:5526891
Islam is obeying Allah and Mohammed, Response to saleem Akhtar [205 words]MohammedOct 16, 2005 00:3226891
Islam without quran and Mohammed, Response to Akhtar [121 words]Hamza Y.Oct 16, 2005 01:1626891
To Hamza and Mohammed [557 words]Mohammed Saleem AkhtarOct 16, 2005 10:0226891
An illuminating post by Mohammed [144 words]SullyOct 16, 2005 11:2326891
Wahabis follow quran and sunna, response to Akhtar. [371 words]MohammedOct 17, 2005 13:3526891
Islam cannot be reformed, Response to Mohammed Akhtar [261 words]RobertOct 17, 2005 14:4026891
2Allah hates non muslims, Response to Mohammed Akhtar [450 words]Abdullah A.Oct 17, 2005 15:0626891
Why blame wahabis, response to Akhtar [271 words]MamdouhOct 17, 2005 17:2926891
Koranic verses- a clarification. [372 words]Mohammed Saleem AkhtarOct 20, 2005 12:5526891
Islam is following quran and sunna, Response to Akhtar [244 words]MohammedOct 21, 2005 13:0726891
To Mohammed [348 words]Mohammed Saleem AkhtarOct 22, 2005 02:5226891
Prophet was a living quran, Response to Akhtar [233 words]MohammedOct 24, 2005 02:0326891
I see no hope Akhtar trying to convince Mohammad [186 words]AmarOct 24, 2005 21:2526891
1Mohammed is right. The prophet was the living quran. (Oct 24 post) [596 words]John BastileOct 25, 2005 05:0126891
Question to Mohammed [239 words]A.A.Oct 25, 2005 19:3426891
Mis understanding of dawah [200 words]yusuf AbdullahAug 27, 2006 14:3626891
lies again [89 words]sakina luluAug 30, 2007 13:2926891
Islam cannot be reformed!! [47 words]SM AkhtarJun 25, 2008 13:4426891
Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W.) [180 words]Abdullah HaleemMar 22, 2009 19:2426891
A Word of Caution [122 words]Aidan MaconachyOct 12, 2005 21:0926886
1Moderates just waiting to become radical. [204 words]Dale EhrgottOct 12, 2005 19:4426883
geez, what a surprise [439 words]garyOct 12, 2005 19:1926882
Thank you LORD. [188 words]YovenOct 12, 2005 17:0926877
A Decision Rule for Bush's War [85 words]Martin KesslerOct 12, 2005 15:5526874
Seperation of Radical from Islam [257 words]Kevin BaysOct 12, 2005 14:1926871
Reply to Kevin Bays [105 words]MaryOct 13, 2005 02:4226871
George Bush's "War on Terror" speech [277 words]Jacqueline F. KnoblockOct 12, 2005 12:2226866
What Bush should have said ... [384 words]Victor PurintonOct 12, 2005 13:1026866
war on terror [41 words]alessandroSep 28, 2006 01:3926866
Enough political correctness. [298 words]PatOct 12, 2005 11:1526862
Islam IS the problem [202 words]Bill StoreyOct 12, 2005 10:2826858
Bush Declares War on Radical Islam (For Bill Storey) [10 words]Jacqueline F. KnoblockOct 12, 2005 17:1126858
Jihad can be good [55 words]JessOct 12, 2005 09:2526854
Islam and the US Constitution [334 words]Michael GlassOct 12, 2005 07:3826850
Bush Declares War on Radical Islam [216 words]Michael GlassOct 12, 2005 06:5126845
Abhor violent reaction. Win their heart by conviction that universal love & brotherhood as fundamental principles of ISLAM [320 words]N NatarajanOct 12, 2005 05:4226843
Natarajan is Correct [222 words]WalterOct 12, 2005 21:2726843
and what about the anticonstitutionality of the Holy Book [82 words]francesco G.MangasciaOct 12, 2005 03:2526839
Islamic Jihad [69 words]Swahili DinazOct 12, 2005 02:3626837
A small step in right direction [261 words]Amitabh tripathiOct 12, 2005 02:0626835
to: Amitabh tripathi [292 words]orange yonasonOct 12, 2005 12:0126835
Congratulations but [83 words]Howard E. CookOct 11, 2005 22:3126832
Religion of peace [214 words]RobbyOct 11, 2005 22:0226831
Better Later than Never [791 words]Yehoshua ZellerOct 11, 2005 21:3426830
Barbary Pirates [33 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Gil BOct 11, 2005 21:1026829
1Religion of Bin Laden and his Ilk is Islam [300 words]JaladhiOct 11, 2005 20:5126828
Inspired By Jaladhi [73 words]orange yonasonOct 12, 2005 12:1426828
A Top 25 Comment! [34 words]Cornelia CreasyOct 12, 2005 13:2626828
militant islam is islam [170 words]henry newmanOct 11, 2005 19:2926826
Bush Declares War on Radical Islam [208 words]NTMOct 11, 2005 18:3426825
Where are the moderates? The reformists? [90 words]Always On WatchOct 11, 2005 18:2126823
Bush war on islam [56 words]bobOct 11, 2005 18:0426821
Is Radical Islam and better than the Radical Religious Right ? [234 words]Gunther SteinbergOct 11, 2005 17:4526819
Response to Gunther Steinberg [455 words]DebraOct 31, 2005 23:2926819
Stop the dribble, state the facts [177 words]J ForceOct 11, 2005 17:3926818
Islamism - a distraction from Islam [146 words]AndrewOct 11, 2005 17:3726817
There is one islam [274 words]M. J. KhanOct 11, 2005 17:2326816
M.J. Khan knows.... [252 words]Cornelia CreasyOct 12, 2005 08:5426816
Sick of the hypocrisy [326 words]Future ACLU OpponentOct 11, 2005 17:0826815
Reply to Future ACLU Opponent [82 words]MaryOct 12, 2005 10:3826815
Extreme Islamists are dissatisfied with our world and want to leave [109 words]David GoshenOct 11, 2005 16:5426814
Presidential support [114 words]Thomas Earl CannadyOct 11, 2005 16:1726812
jihad [228 words]Donald W. BalesOct 11, 2005 16:1126811
The plot thickens. [44 words]Darwin BarrettOct 11, 2005 15:4126808
Halfway measures [428 words]Charles FortnerOct 11, 2005 15:2426806
An Islamic empire all over the world [63 words]David AlgazeOct 11, 2005 15:2326805
Funny [57 words]Kosovan MuslimMar 13, 2006 10:3126805
war on islam [56 words]samDec 31, 2007 15:4126805
Bush is wrong; not an ideology like Communism [246 words]Steve KleinOct 11, 2005 15:0826804
What of those who do not preach violence? [186 words]J.S.Oct 11, 2005 15:0626803
Al Qaeda, Sinai, Iskander SS-26 & Bush's words [352 words]Nachum ' Nick" WiesenfeldOct 11, 2005 15:0326802
For "Nick".....Inalienable rights [142 words]Cornelia CreasyOct 13, 2005 08:1226802
Mr. President: What took you so long? [100 words]There is NO Santa ClausOct 11, 2005 14:5026801
WHAT THEY WANT IS THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. [139 words]BATYA DAGANOct 11, 2005 14:4826800
Radical Islam [210 words]Dr. Anthony RuffinoOct 11, 2005 14:2126799
Islamism And It's Intimate Connection With Nazism [58 words]orange yonasonOct 11, 2005 14:1126797
It's A Start, But... [291 words]orange yonasonOct 11, 2005 13:5526796
Faithfully Sounding the Alarm [174 words]Norman SingerOct 11, 2005 13:5226795
Bush declares our enemy.. [52 words]kim segarOct 11, 2005 13:4326794
Sharia Laws [241 words]Apostate of islamOct 11, 2005 13:2426793
Koran misquoted? and nature of Islam [280 words]Jonathan David CarsonOct 11, 2005 13:2326792
Pipes Right on with Islamic Threat [42 words]Cynthia GrenierOct 11, 2005 13:2326791
Unimpressed by Bush [32 words]Roger W. TalbotOct 11, 2005 13:2226790
Response to Roger re Gaza Strip [147 words]SullyOct 11, 2005 16:3026790
Sully, You Are Missing The Point [129 words]orange yonasonOct 12, 2005 13:2626790
War on Islam or on Islamism [46 words]Romesh ChanderOct 11, 2005 13:1026789
war on Islam [210 words]peter poweSep 27, 2006 23:2626789
Explicit candor [74 words]Yair WeinstockOct 11, 2005 13:0326788
Pipes' Points Finally Having Impact [193 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
steve chambersOct 11, 2005 12:5726787
A light at the end of the tunnel [99 words]abrahamOct 11, 2005 12:5426786
Need to remove Islam from religion [499 words]John BastileOct 11, 2005 12:5226785
Comment on John Bastile post [101 words]A.A.Oct 11, 2005 15:5226785

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