1 readers online now  |  69 million page views

The MIddle East: Facts vs. Prophecies

Reader comment on item: Middle East threats, American retreat
in response to reader comment: The 10 anti-Semitic kings. Daniel 7:20 & Revelation 17:12

Submitted by Michael S (United States), Jul 6, 2014 at 15:41

Hi, Lujack

You gave a long comment, so I'm responding as I go.

1. I am familiar with the WEU; and and the list of "10" you give is an excellent approximate guess at what the horns of the fourth beast are. Those ten horns are analogous to the ten toes of Daniel 2; and form a lsimilar prophetic device to the four heads and four wings of the leopard in Daniel & and the four horns of Daniel 8:8. The "ten" obviously refer to successor states of the Roman Empire, just as the "four" refer to the diodachi, the successors of Alexander.

The exact identity of the four changed with time. At first, four generals -- Antipater, Craterus, Antigonus, and Ptolemy -- rose up against the designated protector of Alexander's infant son. Then the empire was divided up, with Antipater becoming regent of the empire. Antigonus remained ruling most of Asia Minor, Ptolemey was left in charge of Egypt, Lysimachus in Thrace and Seleucus got Babylon. Those last four, in turn, conspired to revolt against Antigonus, dividing most of the empire up among themselves (four major kingdoms). Antigonus' son, however, escaped and formed a "sea empire" among various Greek islands and states. Ultimately, he wrested Macedonia from Cassander (who had won it in the revolt against Antigonus and events shortly thereafter), while Thrace fell to the invading Celts. By the time the Romans came to absorb Alexander's old empire, the main chunks were Achaea (Greece Proper), Antigonid Macedonia, Seleucid Syria, Ptolemaic Egypt and Pergamum, which became the province of Asia. That's five kingdoms: Pick any four, as the successors of the four horns.

The ten horns that came out of the Roman Empire are similarly hard to follow. If we work back from your WEU list, note that (1) Belgium was, until 1830, part of the Netherlands. Before Napoleon messed up the map of Europe, it had been an important part of the Austrian Empire. Italy, moreover, didn't come into its own until 1860. Its king had been king of Sardinia, which was relatively weak when compared with other Italian entities such a the Kingdom of Naples and the Republic of Venice. Germany, likewise, was not unified until 1866, having previously consisted not only of recently dominant Prussia, but also of Saxony (whose ruler had also been King of Poland) Bavaria and Hanover, which was dynastically connected to the UK.

The point I'm making here is that from a prophetic standpoint, the designation of the "horns" depended on when you make the cut and how you draw the lines. The WEU itself was something of a freak of history, having no real power and having "ten members" for only a brief moment in the 1990s. It no longer exists, its functions having been absorbed by the EU.

2. Hatred for the Jews -- this is virtually universal. cf

http://www.adl.org/press-center/press-releases/anti-semitism-international/adl-global-100-poll.html

The "top ten" are West Bank/Gaza, Iraq, Yemen, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Jordan and Morocco. The "ten horns" of Daniel 7 (and of Revelation, for that matter), are not identified by their anti-Jewishness; rather, they are identified as the main successor states of the Roman Empire.

3. The Temple cannot be rebuilt if Israel has enemies with missiles? The scriptures don't say this. You could extend this reasoning to every building in Israel. Israel will build WHAT it wants, WHEREEVER it wants in Israel, and WHENEVER it wants. If and when they build anything is not dependent on how many SKUDs are in the Gaza arsenal.

4. Russia does not appear in any prophecy.

5. "It's a fatal mistake to believe the messiah is coming after the Gog/Magog Russian (sic) war is over."

Fatal to whom? To me? Are you saying he will come BEFORE the Turkish (corrected for you) War? Or during it? Ezekiel 38-39 certainly don't day this. Jesus said "There will be wars and rumors of wars, but the end is not yet." At any rate, this is not fatal to me yet: People aren't being put to death in the US yet, for doctrinal speculations.

6. "Those 10 W.E.U. nations will..."

They will nothing. The WEU no longer exists. cf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_Union

"Whoever Gog is". Gog, or Gugu, or Gyges, was the founder of the Lydian dynasty that ruled western Turkey in the time of Ezekiel. The king at the time of Lydia's fall to the Medo-Persians was Croessus, Gog's grandson. He did not lead a coalition against an Israel which had returned and was living in peace; as Israel was at that time in exile in Babylon. Ezekiel thus referred to a FUTURE king of Lydia (now Turkey) who would rule after Israel's return to Jerusalem and Judea (accomplished in 1967). The current candidate for "Gog" is Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

8. ...speculations about "Antichrist". Antichrist is nowhere said to be a ruler, nor is he even said to be a particular person. cf. 1Jn 2, 4 and 2Jn 1, the ONLY places that term appears in the Christian Bible. In John's day, there were many antichrists.

The "War of Armageddon" which you allude to, specifically the nuclear war foretold in Zechariah 14, is not for some time; because there are many prophecies to be fulfilled before then -- most notably the Turko-Iranian attack on Israel. After that has come to pass, you can start setting your alarm for the Big One. No matter what time you set it for, though, and no matter how loud it rings, Jesus said those days will be as the days of Noah -- people will be concerned not about prophecies, but about "buying and selling, marrying and being given in marriage."

7.

Submitting....

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Comment on this item

Mark my comment as a response to The MIddle East: Facts vs. Prophecies by Michael S

Email me if someone replies to my comment

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

See recent outstanding comments.

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List
eXTReMe Tracker

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2020 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)