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Where are the Old and New Testaments corrupted

Reader comment on item: Istinja' with the Torah and New Testament
in response to reader comment: traduction big troubles

Submitted by Kepha Hor (United States), Sep 26, 2010 at 00:02

I don't know that the Old and New Testaments have been corrupted.

Abdellah Isri, kindly explain this to my benighted, Christian mind. If the Old and New Testaments were corrupted, how come the Jews and Christians have been arguing over the same Old Testament Hebrew TEXT for two millennia, when they did not cooperate with each other in copying and propagating it? Their arguments are always about the interpretation of the book, but not about the text itself.

Christians translate the Old Testament of the Bible into their vernaculars from the same Hebrew text the Jews use and print the same Old Testament the Jews use for Christian use. When Rabbi Dr. Isaac Leeser produced an English version of the Old Testsament for the use of American Jews in the 19th century, he borrowed wholesale from the Christians' King James Version of the Old Testament, figuring that if some English Christians had done a good enough job, he had no reason not to incorporate their work into his. Leeser certainly believed that King James' Christian English translators of 1604-11 were wrong to see Jesus as Messiah; and those Christian translators of the 17th century certainly thought the Jews were wrong to deny that Jesus is the Messiah; but both sides of the debate recognized that the other side was reading the same book.

Also, why do all these non-cooperating Christian Sects do the same with the Greek New Testament? Yes, there are different interpretations, but they are over how we are to understand a commmon text. The Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Copts, and Anglicans all say that there is only one "episcopos" (bishop) in each city; but their versions of the New Testament still have "Presvyteros" (elder) and "episcopos" (bishop) used interchangeably in Acts 20, and plural bishops in the Philippi that the Apostle Paul wrote to at Philippians 1:1. As a Presbyterian who believes in several elders/bishops over each congregation, I see that the ROman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglicans propagated versions of the New Testament that witnessed against their own practice, even when they were the ones who had control over the propagation of the New Testament text. The Roman Catholics say Mary remained virgin after bearing Jesus, and remains so in heaven--but the New Testaments they print still say Jesus was her "firstborn" (implying more children) at Matthew 1:25 and that Jesus had brothers and sisters at Mark 3:32. When people whose doctrines and practices are challenged by what the Scriptural text teaches, yet still refrain from changing it to conform to their ways, this tells me that people were very careful about copying and transmitting these books; that God the Holy Spirit may well have been protecting His Word; and that those who say the Scriptures are corrupted and far from what they originally were (modern scoffers and Muslims alike), such people either lie or simply do not know what they are talking about.

Whereas Muslims are told they may use the Old and New Testaments as toilet paper and are excused by their imams from reading them, I have been told throughout my life as a Christian that the New Testament is only one-fifth of my Bible, and that I must read the four-fifths as well to know how to see the world, understand the history from which Jesus Christ came, pray, and walk. I, and other Christians young and old, are always encouraged to read the whole Bible--both Old and New Testaments. Indeed, almost all Christians know the "Bible" as a single volume with the Old and New Testaments bound together.

Never has any Muslim been able to explain to me how the corruptions the Jews and Christians introduce into the holy books end up with the same Old Testament in both Jewish and Christian hands; and the same New Testament in the hands of Christians of different sects.

I mean, we see the Sunni arguing with the Shi'ah (whether Za'idi, 'Ithna'ashariyya, or Ismaili) with the 'Ibadi with the "Ahmadi with the Ba'hai with the Ali Ilahi, etc. but suppose they have differences over the interpretation of the same Qu'ranic text. But we assume that the Qu'ran--which we do not believe due to its clear misunderstandings and misinterpretations of the Old and New Testaments--of today is probably largely the same that the Caliiph 'Umar collated from bits of inscribed plam leaf and the memories of Muhammad's cocmpanions.

Submitting....

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Reader comments (47) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
Whatever Happened to Dena Milany? [5 words]Geoffrey GomersallApr 10, 2015 17:12222801
2this story about torah istinja bible [49 words]AmaalMar 4, 2013 23:37204040
How Crazy Is This Nonsense? [30 words]AmboydukeApr 8, 2011 12:33184075
it's a book.... [33 words]fezApr 9, 2011 03:35184075
Alternative to screenshots for viewing old versions of websites [113 words]James ForsythDec 27, 2010 19:25181306
4bigotry [109 words]Peter HerzSep 28, 2010 05:33178768
4Ahamdinejad follows this [49 words]Peter HerzSep 26, 2010 15:14178714
13I have seen this practice myself [39 words]GarySep 22, 2010 10:57178570
4All's fair in love and war [147 words]Rebecca MouldsSep 22, 2010 09:27178569
3It started in the 7th century AD [158 words]Kepha HorSep 25, 2010 23:26178569
1praise [40 words]siegfriedNov 19, 2010 00:31178569
4Is It Not Plain Enough Yet? [153 words]M. ToveySep 21, 2010 19:03178538
How true [3 words]Kepha HorSep 26, 2010 00:04178538
3traduction big troubles [124 words]abdellah lasriSep 21, 2010 18:24178536
3no difference [144 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanSep 25, 2010 21:00178536
4Where are the Old and New Testaments corrupted [733 words]Kepha HorSep 26, 2010 00:02178536
translation big problems [179 words]abdellah lasriSep 27, 2010 10:20178536
corrupted [214 words]abdellah lasriSep 27, 2010 10:38178536
2What We Have Here is a Failure to Communicate. [403 words]M. ToveySep 27, 2010 12:29178536
1Again, no evidence [187 words]Kepha HorSep 28, 2010 05:28178536
10The Islamic tradition and al-khara' wa al-istinja' and other sordid matters [1111 words]dhimmi no moreSep 28, 2010 18:18178536
to dhimmi no more [546 words]abdellah lasriSep 29, 2010 03:06178536
2use Scotts - it's a lot softer [320 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanSep 29, 2010 03:28178536
3Islamic ... [152 words]dhimmi no moreSep 29, 2010 07:21178536
1There is No Corruption of Absolute Truth - Only Corruption in the Human Handling of It. [681 words]M. ToveySep 29, 2010 17:40178536
1the Greatly Disturbed [122 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanSep 30, 2010 05:36178536
Do Try Reading Several Bibles Side By Side [385 words]D.K.Milgrim-HeathSep 30, 2010 08:30178536
1Islam and fatwas and the absurd [153 words]dhimmi no moreOct 1, 2010 07:00178536
2More about the fatwa and the funny istinja' [1234 words]dhimmi no moreOct 2, 2010 08:43178536
1another excellent example of cofusion [148 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanOct 2, 2010 22:15178536
2Abdella cannot be an Arab [147 words]dhimmi no moreOct 4, 2010 07:20178536
By the Way - Understanding The Holy Bible is Hard Without the Spirit [127 words]M. ToveyOct 4, 2010 19:46178536
1running & hiding [103 words]the Grand Infidel of KaffiristanOct 5, 2010 03:32178536
Furthering Understanding - Why Islam MUST Oppose the Holy Bible [362 words]M. ToveyOct 6, 2010 18:32178536
Yes, your comments are clear [877 words]Kepha HorOct 11, 2010 18:44178536
1I've taken your advice [156 words]Kepha HorOct 12, 2010 17:09178536
1corruption of islam [58 words]yehudaNov 4, 2010 11:16178536
I am back [154 words]Debanjan BanerjeeDec 1, 2010 21:15178536
But What Have you Learned From Reading the HOLY BIBLE [201 words]M. ToveyDec 5, 2010 20:41178536
My learning of HOLY BIBLE is given below [251 words]Debanjan BanerjeeDec 6, 2010 20:55178536
3Our dear Deb is worried about our native people but does he worry about his own Hindu ancestors? [108 words]dhimmi no moreDec 8, 2010 07:53178536
Dig Deeper in the Hebrew Holy Bible for Its Truth in Your Life [733 words]M. ToveyDec 8, 2010 19:12178536
The True Message of the Torah and the New Testament - Love of Almighty God [724 words]M. ToveyDec 15, 2010 11:04178536
1The exception or the rule? [51 words]Alain Jean-MairetSep 21, 2010 14:40178524
5Arabic word: "istinja' " [66 words]Charlie GriffithSep 21, 2010 12:59178515
4islam [41 words]seraphimeSep 21, 2010 10:26178509
11muslims have been brainwashed to hate the Bible, Torah, Christians, Jews, Israel, non muslims. [87 words]Phil GreendSep 21, 2010 04:31178499

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