3 readers online now  |  69 million page views

Jewish Christian?

Reader comment on item: "Jewish" - Not the Same as "Pro-Israel"
in response to reader comment: Fraudsters? Who they were?

Submitted by Martin Horan (United Kingdom), Nov 24, 2009 at 20:50

My reply to Mr Ivar is: in the first place, I am not Jewish. I do not have that honour--as Charlie Chaplin answered when he was asked if he was Jewish. However I do worship a Jew, the Jewish Jesus Christ Who was and still is a Jew [Rev 5:5] and is God.
I know that many if not most Jews do not believe that. But whatever Jews believe they will not murder me and any other Christians as "infidels" because we do not agree with them.

I can go to Israel and say that I am a Christian without fear of intimidation, prison and murder. My fellow Christians in Moslem Arab countries suffer those very things simply because they have the termerity to believe something different from Islam.
My fellow Chistians also suffer that in some Roman Catholic countries and in parts of the Hindu and even Buddhist world. But the worst counties for persecution of Christians and Jews---and anyone else who isn't Moslem--are Arab ones. That is a fact and one doesn't even have to delve into history to know that. Yet Moslems themselves show the superiority of Christianity (and Judaism) by virtue of the fact that they play the hypocrite by demaning rights in Christian countries that they do not permit to non-Moslems in their own lands.

Jews who have settled in Christian countries have been thankful for their permission to live in them and have contributed to our societies in many altruistic ways, even in Roman catholic countries where they have been treated abominally. They have not demanded rights from us as Moslems do or try to ram their religion down our throats. They do not try to murder and slaughter us--as Moslems did in New York, London, Somali and Madrid--nor do they riot in our streets against us as the people of France experienced recently with the Moslems there.

Mr Ivar lives in a Roman Catholic country--Ireland--and obviously hasn't picked up very much of the culture there or he would know that my surname is Irish (and a fairly common Irish name) and not a Jewish one. He shows his own prejudices when he states that I am "a proud Jew though a Christian one"! That's because he cannot accept that a person can be as pro-Jewish as I am and not be a Jew.
He then asks me if I am accepted as a Jew in my community. I would be surprised if I were as I have an Irish surmame and was an altar boy in the Catholic church as a child--long before I became a Christian!

But I personally know Jews who do happen to be Christians and are accepted as Jews in their communities--something I don't think Mr Ivar would believe for the very reason that, as he cannot understand such a thing that many of us Christians witness daily, he would not be able to believe it.
This shows that he cannot even argue logically. As he lives in Ireland, maybe he should read the New Testament to find out what some people of my (Celtic) race really do believe: There the Apostle warns us Christians in the Book of Romans that we should not even dare to speak against the Jews.
Also, I did not say that my knowledge affects the flow of history, as Mr Ivar states. This is just another straw man. If Mr Ivar were to read a book on basic logic he would see that; and he'd also see that most of his arguing is utterly illogical--as can anyone with a basic grasp of logic.

Actually, if he new anything about his adopted culture he would know that the Irish never were anti-Semitic and they are proud of the fact. He ought to read James Joyce's Ulysses--one of the most famous novels on the planet--to see how Joyce utterly ridiculed people who had attitudes like Mr Ivar's own. Sheridan, another Irishman, also--when anti-Semitism was rife in the world--made a Jew a hero in one of his plays. These Irishmen were not Jews, neither was Walter Scott--a Scotsman--who made a Jew a hero in Ivanhoe. I'd like to know how Mr Ivar deals with those things.
I apologised in advance to him for not understanding much of his language which is why I wondered if English was his first. As he says it is his forth, so I congratulate him and I hope he accepts that I do and am not intending any sarcasm. It also means that he has a fair command of English for a forth language so is to be commended for it. The reason I asked in my last correspondence was, as stated, because I could not understand much of what he was saying.

Whatever his other languages are, I will glady take it for granted that I am not as good as he is in any of them. So now I realize it was not so much a problem, then, with his expressions in English but his expressions of logic.
I mentioned my MA in history merely to show that I had been taught how to reason about that subject. We were expected to do so at the Scottish university I attended--as in all Western universities--and urged not to believe everything because we are told it as Moslems must do of the Koran and the Hadith. (And, of course, as Communists and fascists must believe all they are taught in their universities.) We don't even have to go to history to see that such a thing is demanded of Moslems. We only have to read their own books to see it for ourselves. The Bible, on the contrary, tells us not to believe anything without first proving it [1 Thessalonians 5:21 & 1 John 4:1]: and those Scriptures were written centuries before the Koran or Hadith were even thought of.

Also, far from only reading history, as Mr Ivar falsely claims, I have known people who actually lived under the Hitler and Stalin tryrannies. As I stated above, I am 60 years old and knew these people as personal friends. These people were not Jews but were Polish and Ukranian Catholics. I have heard their personal testimonies.

My own father served in World War II and I also know personally other people who did and who saw the attrocites which went on in Communist and fascist countries. I have read plenty of writings also of people who lived under these regimes. They were not historians but people who experienced totalitariansism.
This very day I was speaking to men (both Scottish protestants who have been in Israel and Arab countries) who had served in the British armed forces. They have dealt with Arabs and one of them was in armed combat against them in Aden as was my very own brother. I had their personal testimonies. So I do not get everything from historians. Mr Ivar accuses me without having any facts to do so. This shows the level of his argument.
Perhaps the longer Mr Ivar lives in Ireland the more he will see that Western historians by and largely try to be truthful. Perhaps his cynicism towards history per se is due to the historians he's read, perhaps from his native country were objectivity was prohibited?
Also, I am presently reading a book by Tass Saada--NOT an historian but a former PLO sniper whose whole focus was on murdering Jews. He is now a Christian and loves Jews. See, Mr Ivar, even a former Arab terrorist can love Jews. Will he be accepted by "Palestinians" as one of their own!?! Or do you think he too must be a Jew?

I read the books of Paul Gabriel, a former Imam of Cairo University who is now a Christian, and those of his Lebanese wife, Jessica. They tell in them of their own personal EXPERIENCES under Islam. And Mrs Gabriel in her book Because They Hate shows what so-called Palestinians did to her own country, and how the Lebanese people sided with Israel.
That's not from Jews or historians. That's from people who were there. (Check their books on Amazon.) Neither of the Gabriels hate Jews. As Christians they love the Jews.

There is also a group on the net called Arabs For Israel. They are neither Jews not historians either. You, Mr Ivar, like I did, could go to them for information if you so wished. To do so will prove your own prejudices. It will show you that your accusations against me are also built on prejudice.
You implied that I believed that you were less educated than I? Such a thing never entered my mind. How could it? Surely your own education on some levels is superior to mine and to other people's as mine is on some levels to yours and that of others. How can we possibly measure anyone's education being more or less than anyone else's? I would not be so foolish as to presume as much. Again, such thinking would have been totally disparaged at my schools, college and university.

I believe also, sir, that you are wrong to claim that we all parrots or monkeys. Human beings are capable of logic. Parrots and monkeys are not. Most people may not use logic when it comes to reason but they can if they were so willing. This is why I also believe you are wrong when you say that we should put the heart above the mind, in so many words. That would be putting emotion above reason.
It is virtually impossible to be logical and emotional simultaneously.

Your own heart made you say that I was Jewish, without even an iota of evidence, let alone proof. While I am greatly flattered at being called Jewish--therefore I would be like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself--your heart was not saying so to flatter me. It's a pity that you didn't use a bit of logic before hand because then you would not have made such a statement.
It's interesting that, according to you, if we used our hearts we'd refuse to kill Arabs even if they were murdering us, though you don't demand that Arabs don't stop their killing us in return! Hmm. To a Western mind such a statement speakes volumes. And it's also interesting that this "heart" for others you talk about--putting ourselves in their shoes--doesn't extend to Jews!

You mention the French Revolution and go off on another illogical tangent that had nothing to do with the French Revolution. (I have studied the writings of those who were there as well as of those of historians of the French Revolution. Their statements all contradict yours.) In one instance you accuse someone (who?) of "killing all the royal families around world". Maybe you haven't noticed but there are many royal families around the world still living--especially among the Arabs. They keep their own people in utter subjection and poverty while they live in obscene opulence and this is all accepted as the "Will of Allah."

Perhaps you cannot recall the overthrow of the Persian royal family. Millions of Iranians still do and millions of them now regret it, as we see daily on the television news. And they themselves will tell you who got rid of them. It was the mullahs, under Khomenei. We saw it with our own eyes on television when it happened. Am I to believe that you reckon all the mullahs were Jews!?
Oh, a Jew can't be a Christian but he can be a Moslem--even a mullah!

You ask me if I do not like a New Age. I got the gist of what you meant. Oh, a New Age is coming. Every Born Again Christian knows that. You see, we Christians have the Old Testament prophets--Jews to a man--who prophesied of the very Age which is to come. In fact, they also prophesied of the very things that were to happen to the Jewish people throughout history and up to that time of the TRUE New Age.
Most of their prophecies, some made more than thousand years ago, have happened; and we see the biblical prophecies of the New World Order falling into place right now.
It will please you, I should think by your own statements, to know that the Bible prophesies that the Jewish people will suffer greatly in the time of the Great Tribulation. But when Jesus Christ returns, according to the Bible prophecies, it will be to punish the persecuters of the Jews and those who try to take His land, Israel.

You see, Mr Ivar, for hundreds of years Christians--not Jews--have waited for this time. If you knew anything about Chritainity you would know that Christians preached to Jews to return to the Land of israel and assisted them in doing so. They knew from the Old Testament and even New Testament prophecies made by Jesus Christ Himself that Israel would become a nation in the "Lat Days" (Matthew 24; Mark 13, &c.), and the surrounding nations would come against them.
You see, prophecy proves the Bible. It names names and it names places and it does so in detail. NO other book ever written does that--not the Koran or any other religious book.

There is no true Christian on the face of the earth who would mind anyone, whatever their religion, reading their own sacred texts and comparing them with the Bible. Interestingly, every Christian would want that. Why? Because we do not fear what other religions teach. We know that if they placed their texts alongside the Bible which would clearly prove to be true. That's why we tolerate other religions. Islam, and the other above religions do not. If Moslems are not allowed to read anything other than the Koran and Hadith how do they know they are true? What are they scared of that they are not allowed to compare them with any other religious texts? If the Koran was true, reading other texts would only prove the fact. That's why we Christians have such confidence. You will notice that the Catholic church has never done that. In fact, they stopped their laity from reading the Bible.
When you find it hard to believe a Jew can be a Christian, perhaps it is Catholicism you mean by "Christian." I would agree with you there then. The Catholic Church, in which I was raised and educated, like the Orthodox Eastern Church, has persecuted the Jews for centuries; just as these "churches" persecuted real Bible-believing Christians.

You see, the reason real Christians can love our enemies and bless those that curse us, is because we know the Bible. And we can know the Bible is true by comparing it with the religious texts of other peoples. And it tells us not to kill our enemies and to love those who hate us. We can only kill others in retaliation. If you have read the Koran, you will know that the Koran does not teach anything like that. If you know the history of the Papacy (history again!) you will know from the Crusades, Inquisition, &c., that it has never been Christian but only appropriated the name of Christianity to itself. It is prophesied in the Book of Revelation (chapter 16) as the great, false church.

I do not hate Arabs and Moslems. I don't have to. Those poor people bring curses upon themselves. There are plenty of warnings in the Bible against those who persecuted the Jews. Even the basics of history teach us that much. Where is the glory of Egypt, the great powers of Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Russia? All those nations persecuted the Jews. They Jews are here and those powers are in the dust.
Even the once mighty Britain which had an empire when I was a child is now a tenth-rate nation, on a par with some banana republics. The US is also in serious trouble. Both their troubles started when these once Christian nations turned against Israel. I have seen it with my own eyes over the last forty years. I have witnessed Bible prophecy falling into place--as have those former Moslem Christian Arabs. They can see for themselves as God promised Israel, their enemies would turn on themselves. We have seen that with all the Arab nations. Look at their sizes and they cannot defeat a tiny nation like Israel--no, not with all their slander and atrocities and the world's media on their side. The more they have attacked Israel the worse things get for them. And the worse they are going to get for them because Bible prophecy tells us they are going to continue in their hatred of the Jews so their curses will continue. Depend on it!

Like me, the above Christian Arabs know there's a New Age coming but they know it's not going to come through the Afafats, Bushes, Obamas, Blairs, Browns or any other yiing politicians of this world. It's not going to come through any religion either, though we know from Bible prophecy that soon all relgions are going to blend--or attempt to--into one global religion (see the prophecies in the Bible books of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and Revelation).
Yes, I can understand why people hate religion. But real Christianity is not a religion. Religious so-called Christianity is "Churchianty." Real Christianity is a Born Again, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And every real Christian has that, Jewish or Gentile. (And a cursory glance at the New Testament would show you that all of the first Christians were Jews. And secular history attests to it it. Before you condemn it, remember the people who were writing history were there at that time, both Jewish and Roman. You werent'.) Only the Bible shows anyone how they can have that personal relationship with Christ.

May God bless you, Mr Ivar. And if you really want that to happen--His blessing, that is--procure a Bible and read what it says about the attitude you should have towards Jewish people; and it's not one based on things you yourself admit you cannot prove. If you decide not to, that's your option. The God of us Christians (and the Jews) won't force Himself on you and His followers won't force you to believe them either. We leave the forcing of religion on others to people whose beliefs are false. The proof is in the fact that they have to use force.


Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

Submitting....

Submit a comment on this item

<< Previous Comment      Next Comment >>

Reader comments (75) on this item

Title Commenter Date Thread
Is J-Street a neo-Bundist movement? [72 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
PezDispenserMar 23, 2015 06:54222464
Zionist now the 'PC' word for Jew [228 words]AndyOct 25, 2009 01:17163531
ZIONISM = NATIONALISM [174 words]JohnNov 6, 2009 17:54163531
Christian Zionism [17 words]Peter FosterSep 26, 2009 23:20162163
Christian ZIonist [768 words]Martin HoranSep 25, 2009 18:16162115
1Koran? [528 words]IvarOct 28, 2009 10:38162115
Protocols of the fraudsters [2180 words]Martin HoranOct 29, 2009 21:03162115
Fraudsters? Who they were? [1289 words]IvarOct 30, 2009 20:28162115
The time has come [52 words]mark haymanNov 7, 2009 18:28162115
Jewish Christian? [3087 words]Martin HoranNov 24, 2009 20:50162115
bnp member [204 words]jamesOct 12, 2011 20:10162115
James and Churchill. [197 words]Martin HoranOct 14, 2011 19:29162115
Mr Pipes is right on..trying to make peace with a "crocodile" only gets your arm chopped off as you try to pet him. [117 words]Ben ZalmanSep 21, 2009 13:02161848
It's our Jewish youth that worries me. My Grandson didnt even know what "Zionism" means! [80 words]Ben ZalmanSep 21, 2009 12:48161847
I have changed my opinion over the years [636 words]sigmundSep 20, 2009 16:09161803
Liberalism as Religious Faith [177 words]Fay VoshellSep 8, 2009 13:53161264
Becoming very weary of Anglo Jews in the Democrat Party [129 words]James B from CanadaSep 15, 2009 13:53161264
James, unfortunately you forgot some major self hating players [185 words]saraSep 15, 2009 18:02161264
Good Jew = Good Liberal ( but not when it comes to business) [162 words]James B from CanadaSep 16, 2009 08:05161264
2Why I am not a Zionist anymore [1009 words]Marc FeldmanSep 7, 2009 10:32161199
Are ashkenazi jews real jews? [87 words]ShaharOct 19, 2009 05:58161199
I am pro-Israel, but I am not a Zionist. [122 words]Marc FeldmanOct 20, 2009 18:48161199
taking care of "the beloved" [94 words]Michele EzellSep 4, 2009 15:08161068
Who tries the hearts [91 words]Michele EzellOct 4, 2009 15:35161068
about hearts [91 words]MicheleJan 15, 2010 06:28161068
Proud Zionist [68 words]SBSep 1, 2009 20:50160947
Never prouder to be a Jewish Zionist [11 words]Jon KleinmanSep 20, 2009 20:04160947
Are all supporters of Israel Zionists? [205 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
LouisAug 28, 2009 19:17160744
Zionism should be historical. Call it Israeli nationalism or simply Pro-Israel. [139 words]Marc FeldmanOct 22, 2009 18:52160744
Allah against the Palestinians and muslims [64 words]Christian MohamadAug 24, 2009 17:10160600
1Sorry Christian Mohamad... [124 words]DillahSep 20, 2009 16:16160600
Beheadings [124 words]Christian MohamadSep 23, 2009 08:11160600
Yes and he also said... [22 words]LynnSep 23, 2009 10:17160600
imams Were able to fool the Muslims and non muslims [189 words]01SpSep 29, 2009 08:25160600
In Response to Christian Mohamad [918 words]DillahOct 8, 2009 00:37160600
European Koran [316 words]Krisitian MohammedOct 9, 2009 01:42160600
You can't erase the past. [197 words]LynnOct 12, 2009 12:42160600
which Mohammad you are talking about ? [43 words]New QuranOct 14, 2009 00:10160600
New Quran [428 words]LynnOct 20, 2009 09:13160600
RE: to Krisitian Mohamad [303 words]DillahNov 11, 2009 19:17160600
Another victim of Islam and Arabinan imperialism [231 words]dhimmi no moreNov 12, 2009 08:08160600
A Spiritual Divide [251 words]Fay VoshellAug 24, 2009 10:54160590
??? [26 words]PavaAug 24, 2009 00:01160574
Clarifying definitions [146 words]Rebecca MouldsAug 21, 2009 09:34160490
Agree Rebecca- regarding Christian Zionists. [132 words]YnnatchkahAug 23, 2009 02:53160490
You Know Nothing About Christian Zionists [106 words]LogiconSep 3, 2009 09:59160490
Really??? [35 words]Rebecca MouldsSep 4, 2009 17:54160490
To Clarify [91 words]Michele EzellSep 4, 2009 21:04160490
References [29 words]Michele EzellSep 26, 2009 00:48160490
Zionism is not Judaism [41 words]Franz von FearAug 21, 2009 03:27160483
"Jews are adherents of a faith, not a political movement-"quote from your column [65 words]David ZoharAug 20, 2009 02:06160449
Jewish not the same as Pro-Israel [74 words]Yitzhak FiersteinAug 20, 2009 01:22160447
Note the Jews in the US congress. [180 words]M.D.Aug 19, 2009 17:37160435
1Tell it to the pro-Palestinians [72 words]Cheryl MAug 19, 2009 16:03160428
non-Christian Zionists [98 words]Anne JulienneAug 19, 2009 15:39160423
Zionism is not Judaism [64 words]Franz von FearAug 19, 2009 15:00160422
Are Kadima and Labour "Pro-Israel?" [48 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
informAug 19, 2009 14:50160421
Zionism and Judaism [97 words]Stefan MarcusAug 19, 2009 14:03160419
Zionism [55 words]Janusz KowealikAug 19, 2009 13:43160415
Our enemies usually don't discriminate between Jewish Zionists and Jewish Israel bashers [639 words]Ken BesigAug 19, 2009 09:39160410
Our enemies usually don't discriminate [142 words]sheik Yer'MamiAug 19, 2009 23:26160410
must take exception to one statement, "Jews are adherents of a faith, not a political movement" -- [37 words]MarkAug 19, 2009 09:24160409
Being Jewish is not synonymous with being Zionist [135 words]Margalit ShinarAug 19, 2009 07:10160403
Islamist "love" for Jews. [156 words]GenivaldoAug 18, 2009 17:50160376
Who is a Zionist? [103 words]Isaac FlaksAug 18, 2009 10:06160361
Who is a Zionist - Indeed! [489 words]M. ToveySep 3, 2009 19:04160361
Remember. [355 words]LynnAug 18, 2009 09:43160360
Interesting comment on Jews [97 words]
w/response from Daniel Pipes
Debanjan BanerjeeAug 18, 2009 09:00160359
But aren't you . . . ? [116 words]RebekahAug 18, 2009 08:46160358
My Christian upbringing makes me a Christian Zionist ! [244 words]Phil GreendAug 17, 2009 23:31160341
I am not sure what the non-zionist Jews want or expect Israel to do. [27 words]Abu NudnikAug 19, 2009 13:44160341
the real israel [186 words]ayahSep 21, 2009 18:42160341
What bogus sources are you getting your info from I wonder [658 words]saraSep 22, 2009 18:38160341
An explanation to my views [960 words]ayahSep 23, 2009 01:07160341
Christian Zionism Requires Full Understanding of the Hebrew Holy Bible [521 words]M. ToveySep 23, 2009 17:02160341

Comment on this item

Mark my comment as a response to Jewish Christian? by Martin Horan

Email me if someone replies to my comment

Note: Opinions expressed in comments are those of the authors alone and not necessarily those of Daniel Pipes. Original writing only, please. Comments are screened and in some cases edited before posting. Reasoned disagreement is welcome but not comments that are scurrilous, off-topic, commercial, disparaging religions, or otherwise inappropriate. For complete regulations, see the "Guidelines for Reader Comments".

See recent outstanding comments.

Follow Daniel Pipes

Facebook   Twitter   RSS   Join Mailing List

ADVERTISEMENTS

eXTReMe Tracker

All materials by Daniel Pipes on this site: © 1968-2019 Daniel Pipes. daniel.pipes@gmail.com and @DanielPipes

Support Daniel Pipes' work with a tax-deductible donation to the Middle East Forum.Daniel J. Pipes

(The MEF is a publicly supported, nonprofit organization under section 501(c)3 of the Internal Revenue Code.

Contributions are tax deductible to the full extent allowed by law. Tax-ID 23-774-9796, approved Apr. 27, 1998.

For more information, view our IRS letter of determination.)