sorry, it's still fiction

Submitted by the Grand Infidel of Kaffiristan (Australia), Apr 2, 2009 at 21:15

Mr. Shaji (peace be upon him) writes:

"I am sure you haven't made any attempt to approach Islam with a clear and unprejudiced mind."
Well then another one of your certainties is truly is misplaced. I have studied Islam - along with many other religions.
It must be difficult for you to accept that a person can study Islam and not find it a panacea for all mankind's ills. But there you have it - people do just that and reach the same conclusion - not because of any perversity of mind but they use their God-given intelligence to discern the truth. They separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

I understand why you might doggedly adhere to your worldview as you most probably have been brought up in an Islamic monoculture where the Muslim way of life and beliefs hold sway. You're part of the status quo.

. "Actually I don't have to rationalize my belief to remain Muslim and to convey the message of Islam. "
Of course you do. But you're so steeped in your cultural millieu that you no longer have to rationalize the absurd. Your superstitions have become real for you - it's now 'reality'. You have your won perfectly good reasons for stepping into the toilet with your left foot and exiting with your right , shaving your pubic hair etc etc

"................It is already clarified by Qur'an and Sunnah through Prophet (peace be upon him). I am only trying to remove the misconceptions about this religion. It is the most misunderstood religion today. ."

As Christ said - 'ye shall know them by their fruits'. i.e. what actually matters is not what people believe but what they do and how they are in their own being. Islam is not misunderstood by non-Muslims - although the idealised version of it you believe in may not be appreciated. Having said that It is good that you live your life by ideals - as long as those ideals don't infringe on other people. However - those ideals are universal and certainly not unique to Islam.

"...It has been maliciously presented in order to keep public away from true principles and in fact, it is the religion taught by all the Prophets (peace be upon them all), that is towards ONE GOD and worship HIM ALONE"
There you go, stating opinions for facts. Bad move. I know it is certainly not the religion taught by all the prophets. All the prophets and spiritual masters mission was to awaken human beings to their true inner potential - the Kingdom of Heaven within, higher spiritual consciousness or whatever you want to call it. Masters and prophets through the ages were connected with this universal consciousness. call it Original Nature, Buddha nature, the real Self or any of the many and varied terms from so many traditions - it all points to the same thing. If you don't recognise or experience the divine within - your belief and worship of an external deity, following rites and rituals is a waste of time. The truth is within each person. It is not 'Islam' - it is beyond words and myth and rites and rituals and beliefs and limitations - and verbal descriptions don't really do it justice. It is the true nature of consciousness itself.

"The problem you face, and all other critics of Islam do, is to interpret Qur'an and authentic Sunnah according to their own wish."
I do not face a problem at all for having looked at the past and continuing effect of Islam on societies - why are you suggesting it is a problem? I do not have a 'wish' to interpret it one way or another. I interpret it as I do. But then again, I am not myopically focussing on it , hoping for it bring some great revelation to me. I have better things to do.

"...As usual like those critics, this is evident from you also."
If I had agreed with Islam and its followers - you would say I was wise but I would say I was a sheep.
What you're basically saying is I have arrived at my own conclusions about Islam through my own reasoning and observations - rather than blindly accepting positive (or negative) opinions of other people. I agree.

"One must understand Islam from Qur'an and Sunnah. "

One mustn't do anything. The Quran and Sunnah have made Islam what it is today - a confused religion practised in a large part by large numbers backward peasants intent on recreating their 7th centruy Arabian myth by whatever means it takes. including blowing up buildings, trains, planes and automobiles to force the hand of 'infidels'. These people have no real insight or appreciation of the worth of their own lives and indeed some will even die in order to kill other human beings in , so hypnotised have they become in their belief in their myth.

"The best teacher and interpreter of both was Prophet (peace be upon him) himself. "
You are adept at making value judgements not based on fact and which can never be proved empirically.

"His followers learnt Islam from him and spread to the whole world."

Islam was not spread to the whole world. For a long time it remained in a very localised region - the Middle east. It was spread through North Africa by what we would call today terrorism and the reason it took off in the East Indies was because the natives there at that time were a collection of primitive tribes (some headhunters) met arab traders and saw that they were fair in their dealings - they used weights and measures and the abacus. So it was a form of assimilation by interaction with a superior culture.

" We living in many centuries later, must understand Islam how those righteous predecessors (called Salaf, pious followers till 3rd generation, as certified by Prophet) understood and followed it."
Again - we 'must' do nothing. You 'must' do nothing as well - though you will follow the dictates of your beliefs.

" Without knowing the background of instructions of Prophet (peace be upon him) and how it is practiced by these predecessors, present-day critics do grave mistake with their own "misinterpretations" to attain their wicked benefits. "

What 'wicked benefits' do people who make objective calls on 'the background of instructions of Prophet' ? There is no mistake at all. The real mistake is to blindly accept it.

"Their intention and purpose is to malign and nothing else."
I probably believed in Santa Claus until I was 4 or so. Most adults don't believe in Santa Claus now and most don't malign Santa Claus and are quite happy for kids down the street to believe - and maybe even their own children. But if the kids down the street started taking over my house and threatened its occupants with harm because they don't believe in Santa Claus - then of course there's going to be a reaction.
From the childrens point of view - it would be seen as malicious wouldn't it?

" Regarding "camel's urine", I already clarified, it was proposed by prophet to certain people that time for some illness and those people got cured through that......."

Well, you can continue drinking it . There may be commercial possibilities there for you - perhaps carbonate it and sell it in soda cans.

"....Also remember, science and understandings of today may change tomorrow and who knows new discoveries will not be made on what you find "unacceptable" today."
Science is just a record of observations and making hypothesis on those opbservations. The underlying principles in the narural world remain constant. Water will continue to quench people's thirst in 5,000 years time.

"Regarding Prophet's (peace be upon him) marriage with Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her), "
Mohammed must have been pleased with her - so that's the same thing.

"I tried to clarify with culture in Semitic traditions, wisdom behind that marriage and with age factor in small detail. "
semitic traditions have reduced its adherents to the squalor most of them currently live in - there is nothing wise about it.

"....It seems you are not convinced and you don't want to ponder over the traditions. "

Yes, I certainly am not convinced and despite your best efforts will never be convinced that a nine year old girl should be having sexual relations with a 53 year old man.

"You are more inclined with Freudian thoughts."
Another assumption but if Freud said child sex wasn't a good thing then you are right. I am inclined to the view that sex with a child is based not on the needs of the child. I suppose pedophiles think their victims 'need' it - but it is purely their own lust , lack of self control and the thoughts of their evil minds that let this occur. There is no justification for it and certainly no tolerance for it in the minds of reasonable people - no matter how much you'd like it to be otherwise. It is sick behaviour.

"See an article entitled Puberty in Girls (http://www.public.health.wa.gov.au/hp2107.htm) by your own country (Australian government Public Health organization), says:
The first sign of puberty is usually a surge of growth: you become taller; your breasts develop; hair begins to grow in the pubic area and under the arms. This may start from 10 years to 14 years - even earlier for some and later for others.This completely refutes your argument that there is no maturity difference among different people."

Not at all. The point I was making was not that different individuals do not physically mature at different rates - it is ridiculous to think that that was the assertion I was making. The point I made was that racial groups do not mature at an earlier rate than others. Precocious puberty occurs in all racial groups for individuals but Arabs as a group do not mature earlier than Chinese for example - or South Americans. Yet child sex is considered completely wrong in those cultures by right thinking people and this is reflected in their laws. And my assertion that a 9 year old girl is not ready physically or emotionally or mentally for sexual relations with a middle aged man for still stands, let alone having a child at that age.

"And as you acknowledge the relevancy of the source of the quote (Australian government Public Health organization) you can bet your last dinar that the Australian Government proscribes child sex in all cases.
An article Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty (http://www.chmc.org/aboutchi/infoline/girls.htm) has this to say:
"During puberty, a girl's body changes, inside and out, into the body of a woman. The changes don't come all at once, and they don't happen at the same time for everybody. Most girls start showing physical changes around age 11, but everyone has her own internal schedule for development. It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14. Even if nothing looks or feels different yet, the changes may have already begun inside your body."

You seem to be a little obsessed with this. We learn this in sex education in late primary school. It really doesn't need to be repeated.

"Many will readily agree with the information above, but still might harbour reservations about whether a marriage to an older man could be happy for such a young girl. "

Yes, I think they just might. Strange , isn't t?

"The marriage of Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her) and the Prophet (peace be upon him) was a mutually happy and loving one as in expressed in numerous Hadith and biography books. That happy marriages occur between people with a fairly large difference in ages is known among psychologists (from Theodor H. Vandevelde, Ideal Marriage: Its Physiology and Technique, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1980, p. 243.):
When the differences (in ages) is great, e.g. exceeds fifteen to twenty years, the results may be happier. "

People with deviant sexualty have a plethora of excuses to justify their behaviour.

"The marriage of an elderly (senescent) not, of course, an old (senile) man to a quite young girl, is often very successful and harmonious. The bride is immediately introduced and accustomed to moderate sexual intercourse."
I'm sure Mr. Theodor H. Vandevelde's opinions are taken on board by rock spiders everywhere and even used by defence lawyers at their trials.

"This topic can be explained in further detail. I will do it as per your response."
I won't ask.

"Regarding Comforter, followers of many religions have their own way of proving their belief. But let us analyze the scriptures to get the truth. If others are able to explain with the base of scriptures, we must evaluate how true is their arguments. I explained in detail about Muslim argument about the "comforter" in my reply to Mr. Lactantius Jr., http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/152892. Hope you will read it.

Actually, rather than concentrating on trying to propogate yet another myth - that Mohammed was the 'Comforter' - I think it would be better if you read the interpretation of the many Biblical references to the 'False Prophet'.

"Mr. GIK, keep in mind, social practices and its acceptability is different among people even in the same country itself. Then how you compare such differences between nations…??. Right and wrong among such practices depends on religion, traditions and many other factors. That's why Islam speaks about God in providing guidance to mankind, wherever you are, irrespective of your cast, color, race, tribe or nation, you must follow God's divine guidance. This is what Qur'an says in 49:13 – "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)".

So, seeing that all cultures are different and that ' Right and wrong among such practices depends on religion, traditions and many other factors' - to make it clear to humanity the 'divine guidance' from the external 'Allah' is that child sex is OK?

"Whether Islam is supreme or not, Qur'an has the answer. It says in 9:33 – "It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it)."

That's like saying to see if 'National Socialism' is supreme - read Mein Kampf. It's hardly objective or an unbiased opinion is it? In fact it is completely subjective for those who believe it. And those who don't because of what they objectively see with their own eyes and appreciate with their minds - are categorised as 'foolish unbelievers' by the deluded.

"...My friend, I would request you to go through Qur'an. You will find hereafter life is a reality. "
All religions say the soul goes on after physical death - so what's new? Not all religions mention 72 virgins, everlasting wine, green cushions etc etc

"It is duty of every Muslim to convey the truth. "
Qur'aan says in 16:125 – "Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance."

You automatically make the mistake of assuming that anyone who does not follow Islam is not on the 'true path'. That is an extremely conceited attitude to have. Are you more enlightened than all Buddhist monks or all yogis or all Christian or Jewish mystics for example? If you are not - then they know something that you do not - and you have something to learn or more to the point - unlearn.

"If Allah wishes, you will reach the truth."
The 'truth' is an inner experience - and one you are unaware of.

"...May Allah helps to understand and follow the truth (Amen)."
'Allah' has - and that's why I am not and never will be a Muslim.

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